Jump to content
You need to play a total of 10 battles to post in this section.
blauflamme22

Move Admiral Graf Spee to tier VII

19 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

Member
159 posts
5,676 battles

Although I know the game isn't supposed to be a really accurate simulation, I find it odd that the Graf Spee is tier 6 along side ships like the Leander, since, as history buffs will know, when it was caught by two Leander-class light cruisers and a York-class heavy cruiser the British still considered themselves to be at a disadvantage. There was a reason after all that the Admiral Graf Spee was refered to in English as a "pocket battleship" I'd be interested to hear others thoughts. Don't get me wrong though I love playing her, she's good at range and despite what others say she's actually not bad in a close range brawl with other crusiers, I just think with a bit more tweaking it could be a great tier 7 ship.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
902 posts
4,229 battles

Historical Accuracy is not exactly the first thing on WG's mind. And in game, she isn't exactly a Pocket Battleship, her armor simply isn't good enough to brawl with nor is her DPM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
159 posts
5,676 battles

Historical Accuracy is not exactly the first thing on WG's mind. And in game, she isn't exactly a Pocket Battleship, her armor simply isn't good enough to brawl with nor is her DPM

 

Hence my suggestion that she could be tweaked a bit to actually be capable of brawling a bit more, for example her secondary armaments are more substancial than most other cruisers in game, perhaps increasing their range along with adjusting some of the armour values or hit points might make her a great tier 7.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
64 posts
6,439 battles

Although I know the game isn't supposed to be a really accurate simulation, I find it odd that the Graf Spee is tier 6 along side ships like the Leander, since, as history buffs will know, when it was caught by two Leander-class light cruisers and a York-class heavy cruiser the British still considered themselves to be at a disadvantage. There was a reason after all that the Admiral Graf Spee was refered to in English as a "pocket battleship" I'd be interested to hear others thoughts. Don't get me wrong though I love playing her, she's good at range and despite what others say she's actually not bad in a close range brawl with other crusiers, I just think with a bit more tweaking it could be a great tier 7 ship.

 

Actually the reason it was called a pocket Battleship is because (by the treaty of versailles) she was a replacement for one of the Pre-Dreadnought Battleships Germany was allowed to keep. By the treaty, she was markedly smaller, hence the 'pocket' description.  In my opinion (which means nothing) she would have been a better fit as a tier 4 Battlecruiser. She fits the classic British description of a battlecruiser:  Battleship size guns, cruiser level armour, and speed (though they chose endurance over speed). The same combination used by the first British Battlecruisers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
422 posts

It would not be very good at T7.  This is because,

 

1) 6 guns on a cruiser

2) 2 turrets which to use fully, must be broadside

3) Size of guns- Can't have 15 second reload, so it will have 20 sec on 2 turrets.  Not good for dpm which is needed for t7. 

4) It will meet T9 ships.  At T6, it is protected from being smashed from T9 ships. The cruisers and destroyers now have the shells and guns to punch through the armor of Graf Spree.  

 

Sorry, but the ship itself is not balanced for T7, but it is for T6.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
159 posts
5,676 battles

If the Graf Spee is a tier 7, what's the point of her when the Scharnhorst is also a tier 7.

 

I do see your point, and they'ed play quite similarly in many ways, I just think that the Spee is interesting because its a cruiser that can almost (big caveat there) be played like a battleship, and that can change the team dynamic. Besides I've encountered plenty enough scharnhorsts in games where I've played the Spee and it performs well against them too. I've just found that in many of the games with mostly tier 6 and lower in the line up I've ended up using the Spee very agressively, more in the style of her big sisters like Scharnhorst because the BBs on the team would rather float around at the back than take any damage for the team. (it seems the Spee is big enough for a lot of adversaries to think shes a battleship when the heat is on). To be honest I love playing her and I'm happy that she's at least a tier 6, I'm just interested to see others thoughts on whether it could be a workable idea. So far it seems that people are happy with where it is and that's fine.

Also thanks to everybody who has voted or posted so far for contributing :medal:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
159 posts
5,676 battles

Also, just a note, I did mention in the original post that it would need some rebalancing, because it would be a bit underwhelming as it is for tier 7.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SGC]
Super Tester
1,459 posts
6,801 battles

Also, just a note, I did mention in the original post that it would need some rebalancing, because it would be a bit underwhelming as it is for tier 7.

 

Even then. What can it do that the Scharnhorst can't? The Scharn has a ridiculously good armor that the Graf simply cannot compete with. The Scharnhorst also goes as fast as the Graf. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[LLBC]
Member
747 posts
6,851 battles

 vyYxQIL.pngUYLy0QM.png

 

The glaring issue about the Spee is that her armor isn't even hold up well, even by cruiser standards. The picture aboves shows how vulnerable she is from plunging deck fire. She only have 19mm deck with another 20mm citadel roof. she will get overmatched into citadel into any BB she faces barring Scharnhorst.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
6,604 posts
2,477 battles

Lack of armor, LACK SPACE FOR ADDITIONAL ARMOR UPGRADE

lack of Speed, same point as above

Lack DPM, Scharnhorst guns, but this time you only have 2 turrets, cant change much from it

Lacking range and View range, need higher pagoda (lol), means making it different ship all together

 

1. Graf spee

2. Change to tier 7

3. Major rebalance

4. ????????

5. Scharnhorst

Edited by Harpoon01

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
159 posts
5,676 battles

Some suggestions if it was to move (though clearly the consensus is not) would be to decrease the reload time of the main guns slightly, increase the range of the secondaries, and increase some of the armour values, the rudder shift time could also be reduced to make up for the fact that she wasn't very fast (though she was considered pretty manoeuvrable). I'd just like to repeat that I'm mearly asking the question rather than advocating and then defending to the death the idea of moving her up a tier. As I also mentioned in the original post, it isn't a completely realistic simulation, (just look at some of the camos for starters) so it would be very possible to change some of the armour values on the in-game version. But it seems people are happy with it where it is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
6,604 posts
2,477 battles

The Guns and Turret is exactly the same as Scharnhorst changing it would be not logical

 

And will led the protest of scharnhorst not having the same buff

 

The seccondaries is not much different from other cruiser and at most ,after buff, you could get the same secondaries as British Cruiser

 

The cruiser is not that speedy for a good reason, the Armor is already on Battlecruiser armor, but the engine clearly unable to maintain the good speed, changing it to battleship engine also not possible since it is a cruiser Sized ship

 

asnswered God dang it

Stop repeating the problem that already been asnswered

 

The Rudder is irelevant since the ship itself is not for brawl

Edited by Harpoon01

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
159 posts
5,676 battles

I also feel that while some comparison is due with Scharnhorst, (both capital ships, both sporting the 280mm main guns), in the game one is a battleship and as such gets matched with a battleship (and a similar play style) while the other is a heavy cruiser and gets matched with cruisers (and a very different playstyle) yet is in many ways a kind of hybrid, just like the Scharnhorst. Also there are other ships that are very similar that are in the same tier (think Leander and Perth - a modified leander), so I think just being similar isn't necessarily a reason for not having two ships in the same tier.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
159 posts
5,676 battles

The Guns and Turret is exactly the same as Scharnhorst changing it would be not logical

 

And will led the protest of scharnhorst not having the same buff

 

The seccondaries is not much different from other cruiser and at most ,after buff, you could get the same secondaries as British Cruiser

 

The cruiser is not that speedy for a good reason, the Armor is already on Battlecruiser armor, but the engine clearly unable to maintain the good speed, changing it to battleship engine also not possible since it is a cruiser Sized ship

 

asnswered God dang it

Stop repeating the problem that already been asnswered

 

The Rudder is irelevant since the ship itself is not for brawl

 

Rudder is useful not just in a brawl, and Spee has 8x150mm secondaries, which is basically the same size as a Leander-Class' main armament (both had a 23km range in real life) so buffing them could make her a very prickly customer. Also I said nothing about her engine power, since she was built for endurance not speed. Also,while I perhaps phrased the original question as too much of a musing, It was intended more as a point for discussion that a simple qestion and answer. I do take on board your mention of Scharhorst skippers demanding a similar buff to the guns for example, which is why I asked for peoples thoughts on the matter. People also complain about the Edinburgh being a flamethrower especially compared to the Fiji.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×