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Somedude_Yudachi

IJN cv vs USS cv?

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Trust me when I say this, your bigger problem past tier 7 won't be enemy CV but more like OP AA on surface ships. There is a reason for only few CV players at high tiers. Right now endgame CV play is completely broken.

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T4 : Balanced

T5 : Bogue annoying AS loadout, IJN CV cannt do anything

T6 : GG Ryujo destroy the entire team, while Independence just use 1/1/1 loadout most of the time

T7 : ALL CV SUX..... SAIPAN ARE OP!!! wait Kaga have insane damage and GG secondary, but cannt do much againts Saipan.....

T8 : and finally SUNK THE YAMATO!!! [both lexington and Shokaku can do this] Lexington use Strike loadout most of the time.... 

[ this tier have a lot of T10 MM.... Missouri, Minotaur and Neptune...... AVOID THIS SHIP AT ALL COST! des monies can be bombed byDB and wont actvate its AADF LOL, if it did just send TB later to rekt it]

 

Soon :

T9 : both CV agree to do damaging only and dont give sheet about protecting fleet

T10 : GG midway BB smasher..... why the heck midway have average damage higher than Hakuryu? still mistery.....

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Super Tester
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Trust me when I say this, your bigger problem past tier 7 won't be enemy CV but more like OP AA on surface ships. There is a reason for only few CV players at high tiers. Right now endgame CV play is completely broken.

 

So, by your logic, you can only play CV when there is no counter on surface ships. Since surface ships having good AA requires better micro management and planning, you can't deal with it? How about you get the idea of free riding out of your head...

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[LNA]
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So, by your logic, you can only play CV when there is no counter on surface ships. Since surface ships having good AA requires better micro management and planning, you can't deal with it? How about you get the idea of free riding out of your head...

Icy i get that you are very good , however what can you do when there are 2 monsters AA loitering around important areas? Ignore them ? Fair enough, but that limit you to tunnel your squads to predetermined air routes that any decent CV can guess and put plane right there to stop you. Thats happen very frequently on high tier and by now the playerbase has learnt to stick to the stack of doom. Cv is not competitive in high tier and have diminishing impact on the game exactly because of 1+1 is not 2.

I notice that right now lemning train is the latest trends on high tier and most team will form a giant camp turtle around the cap. It is extremely sad that right now playing agressive will get you killed when neither teams nor enemies return to your calls.

CV influence cannot even outdo a division influnce so theres that to. Highly influential in lower tiers but just meh in tier 9 +

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I've heard people says IJN maybe not that better than the USS from tier 4-6 especially when they're 201 flight mod but it will get better when you're in tier 7-10,is that true?

 

I prefer flexibility so I prefer IJN all the way. you're just going to have some problem with those AS USN carrier but with good awareness and attention you could pull some nice strike.

 

Yes, you don't expect to win against USN carrier with his fighter unless you're smart and he's dumb or you've got more than 1 squad of fighter but I don't recommend running AS in Japanese carrier tho, those stacked torp bomber are significantly better than the unstacked one. 

 

T7 : ALL CV SUX..... SAIPAN ARE OP!!! wait Kaga have insane damage and GG secondary, but cannt do much againts Saipan.....

 

You don't expect to contest AS with saipan and come out on top but you could always use those "more than twice the saipan's" strike plane and focus on doing damage. 

It shouldn't be too hard to pull a decent game fighting against saipan in other carrier unless it's someone like strat who' driving the saipan.

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So, by your logic, you can only play CV when there is no counter on surface ships. Since surface ships having good AA requires better micro management and planning, you can't deal with it? How about you get the idea of free riding out of your head...

 

What is your problem icy? You are a supertester, I get it. Heck I am sure most newbie forum members must assume that you are good because of your supertester status. But let me ask you, do you really think every person here is as good as a unicum? Because I really feel you are disconnected from how an average player tackles this game. It is a fact that past tier 7, you get to meet brainy people, a lot. Most of these people have grinded and understood the game and a lot of these folks are either divisioned up or sail in groups. And with every tier ascension, this style only gets stronger. Now add this to the fact that a lot of ships past tier 7 have good, if not amazing, AA. Add more, that 1 our of 3 people at this tier definitely have manual AA skill or DFAA.  And finally as legionary2099 said, assume that most of these people are gonna trade shots while camping. Now a CV can't sit and trade shots from a distance. He/She is supposed to penetrate over to the enemy side, all the while fighting enemy fighters, and IF he/she finally does make it only to get heavily obliterated by the enemy's combined AA. Best maybe 2 torps get off. So what now? Play stupidly. Hug the edge and try to snipe the loners or the enemy CV? What exactly is the CV going to do that is gonna benfit the team? Might as well just spec for fighter role and guard your team. Then sit with thumb up your ass once you shutdown the enemy CV or they shut you down. Are you getting my gist here?

 

I am not really saying this is the norm but WG's sense of AA balancing is really screwed at the moment. It is pretty evident in the latest phase of Hood re-balancing as well. Flamu did a test of Hood with an AA spec captain and that ship destroyed aircrafts like it was swatting out flies. Hood never had that kind of amazing AA in real life and yet here we have it. Not saying it will make it over to the live server but right now as it stands, the Asian high tier camping meta + strong AA = salty tears for an average CV player. It is not that CV are completely useless, but the amount of effort a CV player has to put in a high tier game is immensely taxing compared to a surface ship player.

 

Edited by LonerPrime

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Video Contributor
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USS easy control and huge squadron per group

IJN needs experience to control and do combo very easy

USS has potato/pro player style 012 and 013 (mostly i really hate this group potato player play too much!) and AS 

IJN has lots of group (maximum 8) your fingers will........

USS has a 1000lbs

USS has a RNG based

Ahh

DETONATION!

IJN has a B7A

IJN has a type99

Ahh

Where is 800kg!

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Super Tester
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What is your problem icy? You are a supertester, I get it. Heck I am sure most newbie forum members must assume that you are good because of your supertester status. But let me ask you, do you really think every person here is as good as a unicum? Because I really feel you are disconnected from how an average player tackles this game. It is a fact that past tier 7, you get to meet brainy people, a lot. Most of these people have grinded and understood the game and a lot of these folks are either divisioned up or sail in groups. And with every tier ascension, this style only gets stronger. Now add this to the fact that a lot of ships past tier 7 have good, if not amazing, AA. Add more, that 1 our of 3 people at this tier definitely have manual AA skill or DFAA.  And finally as legionary2099 said, assume that most of these people are gonna trade shots while camping. Now a CV can't sit and trade shots from a distance. He/She is supposed to penetrate over to the enemy side, all the while fighting enemy fighters, and IF he/she finally does make it only to get heavily obliterated by the enemy's combined AA. Best maybe 2 torps get off. So what now? Play stupidly. Hug the edge and try to snipe the loners or the enemy CV? What exactly is the CV going to do that is gonna benfit the team? Might as well just spec for fighter role and guard your team. Then sit with thumb up your ass once you shutdown the enemy CV or they shut you down. Are you getting my gist here?

 

I am not really saying this is the norm but WG's sense of AA balancing is really screwed at the moment. It is pretty evident in the latest phase of Hood re-balancing as well. Flamu did a test of Hood with an AA spec captain and that ship destroyed aircrafts like it was swatting out flies. Hood never had that kind of amazing AA in real life and yet here we have it. Not saying it will make it over to the live server but right now as it stands, the Asian high tier camping meta + strong AA = salty tears for an average CV player. It is not that CV are completely useless, but the amount of effort a CV player has to put in a high tier game is immensely taxing compared to a surface ship player.

 

 

Erm.... Not to be a brag but even with the AA shit storm and all, you can still sink those AA ships. You need to have better timing and strategy to hit them.

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I am not really saying this is the norm but WG's sense of AA balancing is really screwed at the moment. It is pretty evident in the latest phase of Hood re-balancing as well. Flamu did a test of Hood with an AA spec captain and that ship destroyed aircrafts like it was swatting out flies. Hood never had that kind of amazing AA in real life and yet here we have it.

 

Yeah I am not sure what WG is thinking with the Hood. It seems like they saw most CCs were saying she was underwhelming, so they buffed her with this gimmick.

 

Why they decided to use a gimmick to buff her instead of some other stats, like turret traverse or something, I don't understand.

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[KGHSF]
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Ask about TB Midway could take on by 6 while Hakuryu throw 12 planes on one ship 

Honestly Hakuryu should get higher avg. but couldn't :wander_cap:

 

If use DB? Yeah definitely Midway 12 planes same to Hakuryu but Midway still dominate MOAB 

Edited by THAI_THIEF

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ATM I'm having trouble deciding whether to get a Lexington or a Shokaku ... I don't play CV very often and am a total potato but I need one or the other to be able to finish the Honorable Service campaign with honors since Mission 4 Task 4 (spot 50 torps) requires a T8-10 CV and I am only up to Ranger and Hiryu so far ... I'm leaning towards the Lex... or should I go for Shokaku?

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Erm.... Not to be a brag but even with the AA shit storm and all, you can still sink those AA ships. You need to have better timing and strategy to hit them.

 

You are talking about hunting when they are solo. Yes I can do that as well and I don't even mind losing one or two planes but my argument was regarding striking hurdled up targets. At that point you have two choices. Go YOLO and pray something survives or just concentrate somewhere else entirely which might not be what your teams needs.

 

 

Why they decided to use a gimmick to buff her instead of some other stats, like turret traverse or something, I don't understand.

 

Oh they are buffing the traverse rate as well. If I am not completely off, it is going down from 54 to 35 or something like that in the next balancing. Of-course this is all testing phase so things could be different once Hood goes live but the AA buff is seriously mind boggling. The ship was bad IRL, it makes sense to make it a bit better for game play reasons but apparently the definition of "a bit" is really something else in WG's dictionary.

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Shocky is easier to play then Lex, but I find it less fun than the hiryu

Lex is so much fun but much harder as strike

It is so goddamn boring as AS - 202 is like watching paint dry

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Honestly , the number one problem with US is the saying that quantity is a quality too and the US lack exactly that.

B4 skill rework , most morons can spec AA and can play dumb and you will have a hard time or waste too many planes to kill the solo noob.

Now is the stack of doom campers which cv has no way to disperse them short of suiciding your squad kamikaze style.

Division with AA ships + cv combo is almost cheating in winning the game as it guarantee the enemy cv cannot touch the most important spots.

Sticking together is a good thing , however lemning train into a big stack of doom to camp is not.It is not rare for random team to band up like that instead of spreading evenly into 3 or 4 ship groups like intended.

WG intend cv to be the most flexible ships , but current meta say that it is the best scout and the most useless in impacting a camping mob

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I'm not bored enough to amuse every notion of what was posted in this thread, so apologies for focusing on one particular

subject instead of writing a wall of text.

 

I am not really saying this is the norm but WG's sense of AA balancing is really screwed at the moment.

 

AA suits were buffed back when US CVs still had two torpedo bomber (TB) squads (and 1 fighter squad) in their strike loadouts.

The main reason, quite obviously, being that 2x6 TBs are insanely strong.

 

 Balance

 

f9pLLwN.jpg

yx1nFDv.jpg

 

Now jump to several months later, JP CVs enter the fray and Wargaming decides to go with a WoT approach on how to

generally differentiate the core vehicles of the same class from different nations.

 

Aka:

GER tanks = Tanks

US tanks = Brawlers

RU tanks = Burst damage dealers

 

The ideology applied to carriers being:

US CVs = Aerial Superiority

JP CVs = Strike strength

 

Keep in mind that originally CVs were able to division together, which was first reduced to 2 CVs per division max and then completely disabled.

Behind all this sits an aircraft damage calculation that favors large squadrons over small ones.

 

The basic idea being that JP CVs can bring more damage towards targets while losing more aircrafts in the process

while US CVs have better sustain through aircraft survivability.

 

Anyone who's gone up against a non-AA specced Bismarck with an Independence bomber squadron these days knows exactly what this means.

Torpedo bombers will lose 1-2 planes pre drop and maybe another post drop, against a quite nicely armed BB in terms of AA.

That's still a suitable torpedo wall with 3-4 hits.

Meanwhile Ryuujou's and Hiryuu's TBs can easily lose 2+ planes per squad pre drop and lose the rest before they can escape the AA bubble.

 

So why was it necessary to buff AA back then?

The problem was that it became increasingly difficult to dodge incoming torpedoes from bombers with the introduction of manual dropping.

AA had to be buffed to give surface ships a way of fighting back, however at the same time Wargaming was unable to come up with a good method of doing so.

 

So, in typical "bad life choices" manner they decided to keep trying to balance things out with existing mechanics.

When that didn't work they increased the effectiveness of the DFAA consumable and catered more ships towards having a strong AA suit

or access to DFAA.

 

And this cycle of minor changes/tweaks without any meaningful impact has been ongoing since alpha.

 

Frankly spoken I still believe what I first suggested in alpha.

Carriers as they are need to be removed, completely reworked internally and then re-presented to the public.

 

However this is Wargaming we're talking about and they've long since shown that they don't have the will to commit to the difficult

parts during development and rather dance around the issue in hopes that it can be resolved with minor changes.

 

What was it again that I read in a recent WoWS Q&A?

 

Q: Why is there a new Premium carrier vessel coming (Kaga) when carrier gameplay is still being fixed?

A: We did some carrier improvements and fixed some annoying problems.

Meanwhile, the community has long requested a Japanese carrier.

There’s nothing in the current gameplay environment prevent effective play with Kaga.

She’ll also be fine with any future changes.

 

 

 Yeah, you tell yourself that, Wargaming, I'm sure it's perfectly fine when a fairly average player like me can just blurp all over

Kaga because I'm abusing the many holes carrier game mechanics have...

 

2xjW5mF.png

 

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I dont know much about cv but im certain on 1 thing. I hate cvs. They always bully me in my smol DD. 

I assume they spot you and other ships rekt u?

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Currently playing Langley and it's the only balanced tier?

 

Langley and Hosho are fine if both players have a basic understanding of carrier mechanics and are on the same skill level.

One can dominate via fighter superiority, the other can kite & lure, note: Hosho doesn't need to cross drop to hit targets.

 

Bogue and Zuiho are down to loadouts and player skill.

The common situation of AS Bogue vs. Zuiho with two equally skilled players means that neither is going

to deal heaps of damage, but Zuiho is likely to be able to outdamage the Bogue one way or another.

 

Personally I think the balance is okay between these two since they're both equally weak.

As for fun gameplay and useful for the team... well... I've recently grinded through both lines up to tier VI (US) and VII (JP)

on the NA server...

 

 I'll let you interpret the numbers for yourself...

 

uCbZRs3.png

 

Independence and Ryuujou are decently balanced again, similiar to Langley and Hosho.

However there's still several issues that hold them back by virtue of being issues to the core game mechanics carrier gameplay is based on.

 

The example I mentioned above works here, too.

RJ's 4 plane squadrons suffer from the damage calculations favorising large squadrons.

Hence she can't drop as carefree as Indy can and has to micro much more.

 

Plus Indy's damage potential with it's very strong single TB manual drop is fairly high.

I'd even say that Indy is far better at removing DDs from the game since RJ might actually lose a plane while setting up a proper cross

or staggered drop.

Meanwhile Indy's TBs can just dance with the DD for a while, get into a proper position once the DD has slowed down a bit during it's

evasive maneuvers and bang, 2 torp hits, 1 kill.

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Well said Retia. Right now the AA situation on high tiers has gone from appropriate to Overkill with no respite to CV in sight. For me personally, I plan to play Ryujo to unlock AS on my captain and once I get Hiryuu unlocked, I intend to go back on Hosho and just play CV to blow off steam. I just don't see the allure in advancing any forward with the current way of things.

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Pretty much what Retia said...

 

I've just put my CV grind on ice (wasn't top of the pile anyways).

 

Still can't believe there's been premium CV releases without fixing the issues first, as WG don't like making drastic changes to premium ships from what I've seen...

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