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Unraveler

Will French BB Richelieu Be Tier 9?

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In recent news rumours, the new kid on the block Henri IV is getting an AA buff, which she desperately needs. The dual purpose guns remain the same, but the twin 57mm mounts get their total output raised to 204 dps and range boosted to 4.5 km. These are base figures. Not all that exciting, but her AA is decent now and almost comparable to her peers. Still on the low side, but not terrible anymore.

 

However, this specific change has some severe implications for another upcoming ship that happens to also use these twin 57mm mounts: BB Jean Bart. While H-IV has 8 of these turrets, BB JB has 14. In addition to that, BB JB has 12 twin 100mm dual purpose turrets. These are the very same ones that adorn the upgraded Saint-Louis. So that means this Battleship will have 357 dps at 4.5 km and 178 dps at 5.0 km, base. Fully specced for AA and you get a monster that spews forth 1,176 dps out to a range of 6.5 km.

 

Jean Bart is rumoured to be the premium sister ship of Richelieu in the tech tree, widely predicted to weigh in at Tier 8. With Jean Bart's newly buffed AA, though, I'm not so sure. At first glance, 8 x 380mm rifles looks pretty weak even at Tier 8 and sounds ridiculous for Tier 9. The all-forward layout, though, has a special potency all its own. Compare Dunkerque with Kongo, for example. Dunkerque is one tier higher, with the same number of guns but they're even smaller than Kongo's. Reload is slightly faster (~7%) but armour and speed are roughly the same. On paper, Dunkerque seems a bit weak even for Tier 5, let alone Tier 6. In actual battles, though, she performs well and it's almost entirely due to her unique main gun layout. Being able to stay constantly bow-on without sacrificing any firepower is a powerful ability in this game. It also allows target side switching (either through weaving or simply changing targets) without having to wait for a rear turret to swing the long way around.

 

Back to Richelieu and Jean Bart. Essentially, they are like a Bismarck that has all the guns mounted on the front. Suddenly it doesn't sound like such a great idea to put them at Tier 8, especially with the monster AA suite of Jean Bart. It's not hard to imagine that Henri IV's current poor AA is a direct result of the developers being unsure about how potent they wanted the future Jean Bart to be, AA-wise, since they share the same mounts. The upcoming buff to Henri IV apparently indicates that they're happy for Jean Bart to have a ridiculously powerful anti-aircraft capability, and carrying on from that thought, perhaps implies that she'll therefore be Tier 9 rather than Tier 8. Perhaps placed as a Free XP grind like Missouri rather than a normal Premium.

 

And I think maybe a 380mm "Dunkerque" with full battleship armour, high speed, and record-breaking AA might actually work at Tier 9, particularly with the prevalent bow-on shenanigans of high tier battles. Is that what we'll see in the French Battleship lineup, do you think?

Edited by Unraveler

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not a chance, the 4*2 380 gun up against what? iowa's 3*3 406 super heavy shells, izumo's 3*3 super fast shells, FDG with 2*4 420 guns, she would be eaten as breakfast, more likely JB will be a prem T8 and richelieu will be the tech tree standard

Edited by drakon233

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No. I don't think Richeliu will be fun at T9. AA could be the national flavor of the French along with forward turrrets(or white flag).

 

Here is an interesting website I found. (http://www.combinedfleet.com/baddest.htm)

 

Also richeliu seems to only have 6.7" of deck armor.

Edited by karrablaster123

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not a chance, the 4*2 380 gun up against what? iowa's 3*3 460 super heavy shells, izumo's 3*3 super fast shells, FDG with 2*4 420 guns, she would be eaten as breakfast, more likely JB will be a prem T8 and richelieu will be the tech tree standard

YES PLEASE

 

back on topic

 

380mm at T9 lol rip, bow on German cruiser=all bounces unless u hit superstructure, same with Baltimore and Des Moines. if they fight 1v1 with a Des Moines, the DM can just sit bow on and completely out DPM it using both HE and AP while barely taking any damage. Unless the BB fires HE but it's not like it would save itself because lol saturation

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YES PLEASE

 

back on topic

 

380mm at T9 lol rip, bow on German cruiser=all bounces unless u hit superstructure, same with Baltimore and Des Moines. if they fight 1v1 with a Des Moines, the DM can just sit bow on and completely out DPM it using both HE and AP while barely taking any damage. Unless the BB fires HE but it's not like it would save itself because lol saturation

 

nope nope nope nope nope

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not a chance, the 4*2 380 gun up against what? iowa's 3*3 406 super heavy shells, izumo's 3*3 super fast shells, FDG with 2*4 420 guns, she would be eaten as breakfast, more likely JB will be a prem T8 and richelieu will be the tech tree standard

 

Not too different to Bismarck's guns vs North Carolina, Alabama, and Amagi. All these guns at Tier 8 and 9 will autobounce off all their bows. Penetration will be good enough (the French 380mm rifles are very powerful) and raw damage can be set fairly close to the others. Looking at Dunkerque, buffed HE might also be a French trait here. In many situations, the French boat would offset the fairly insignificant calibre disadvantage by having more guns on-arc than anyone else. As mentioned earlier, imagine a Bismarck that can fire all of her guns directly forward. Even a potato like me could do well in Tier 9 with that.

 

 

No. I don't think Richeliu will be fun at T9. AA could be the national flavor of the French along with forward turrrets(or white flag).

 

Here is an interesting website I found. (http://www.combinedfleet.com/baddest.htm)

 

Also richeliu seems to only have 6.7" of deck armor.

 

That's 170mm? I'm not sure if Wargaming follows historical deck armour or if it's a balancing mechanism, but 170mm is not going to let anything get through the deck.

 

 

380mm at T9 lol rip, bow on German cruiser=all bounces unless u hit superstructure, same with Baltimore and Des Moines. if they fight 1v1 with a Des Moines, the DM can just sit bow on and completely out DPM it using both HE and AP while barely taking any damage. Unless the BB fires HE but it's not like it would save itself because lol saturation

 

That won't really be any more of an issue at Tier 9 than it currently is with Bismarck and Tirpitz. The difference will be that Richelieu will likely have much more potent HE than the German sisters and generally have twice as many barrels available to fire.

 

 

You guys are probably right - the Richelieu and Jean Bart being Tier 8 - but I still wonder if they would be too strong there, even disregarding the massive AA.

 

Here's a bow-on comparison of the Tier 8s and Tier 9s (fitted with reload module) with possible Tier 8 and Tier 9 stats for the French.

 

Tier 8

              Amagi:   8.0 rpm  101k AP dpm   52k HE dpm

         Bismarck:   9.2 rpm  107k AP dpm   41k HE dpm
North Carolina:  12.0 rpm  157k AP dpm   68k HE dpm
        Richelieu:  17.1 rpm  206k AP dpm   94k HE dpm  (28s reload, 12000 AP, 5500 HE)

 

Tier 9

Friedrich 420:    8.5 rpm  115k AP dpm   43k HE dpm

Friedrich 406:    9.7 rpm  124k AP dpm   47k HE dpm

           Izumo:  13.6 rpm  175k AP dpm   88k HE dpm

             Iowa:  13.6 rpm  184k AP dpm   78k HE dpm
      Richelieu:  19.5 rpm  234k AP dpm  107k HE dpm  (24.64s reload, 12000 AP, 5500 HE)

 

French gun stats are completely made up by me, roughly based on Dunkerque. Real stats could easily be higher. It'll be pretty scary facing a bow-on Richelieu if her guns are even just average.

Edited by Unraveler

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Here's the full-broadside comparison, to show the worst-case scenario for Richelieu:

 

Tier 8

         Richelieu:  17.1 rpm  206k AP dpm    94k HE dpm  (28s reload, 12000 AP, 5500 HE)

         Bismarck:  18.5 rpm  214k AP dpm    81k HE dpm

North Carolina:  18.0 rpm  236k AP dpm  103k HE dpm
             Amagi:  20.0 rpm  252k AP dpm  130k HE dpm

 

Tier 9

Friedrich 420:  17.0 rpm  230k AP dpm    85k HE dpm

      Richelieu:  19.5 rpm  234k AP dpm  107k HE dpm  (24.64s reload, 12000 AP, 5500 HE)

Friedrich 406:  19.5 rpm  247k AP dpm    94k HE dpm

           Izumo:  20.5 rpm  264k AP dpm  133k HE dpm

             Iowa:  20.5 rpm  276k AP dpm  117k HE dpm
 

 

She's not going to be winning any awards in a Broadside Tournament but she's certainly not far off the pace. So, purely from a main gun standpoint, Richelieu and Jean Bart could compete just fine at Tier 9 and when bow-on, even give Tier 10s a run for their money. In fact, at Tier 8 I think their stats would need to be significantly lower than the fantasy numbers I've conjured up here.

Edited by Unraveler

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Well let me see some pic please

 

This is what Jean Bart looks like in your crosshairs:

 

RACpdmK.jpg
 

 

Edited by Unraveler

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That looks like a crap tonne of secondaries. 

 

 

12 x 100mm guns per side, with a 3.0 second reload. It'll be an impressive fireworks display, although she'll need IFHE to actually inflict much damage with them at that tier.

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That looks like a crap tonne of secondaries. 

 

 

its AA gun

57mm is to light for secondary

 

either way, 380mm is to light for T9

beside the Richelieu peerage ships would be Bismarck Class, Littorio, NC and Vanguard

All fit well in T8, 

Beside Richelieu should be the lead ships, and she never undergo  cold war moderinization - so at least normal line would be consistent

Edited by humusz

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That's 170mm? I'm not sure if Wargaming follows historical deck armour or if it's a balancing mechanism, but 170mm is not going to let anything get through the deck.

 

Made a conversion mistake

Don't mind me

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That's 170mm? I'm not sure if Wargaming follows historical deck armour or if it's a balancing mechanism, but 170mm is not going to let anything get through the deck.

It's the armored deck, not the upper/weather deck.

 

Only in very rare occasions/selected few ships can AP shells pass the main deck, but once the AP shells made through the upper deck, they are able to get a normal penetration doing 0.33*Alpha damage. But if the main deck is the upper deck and is thick enough, that will become extremely well protected. For example Taiho Hakuryu and Midway have really thick flight deck. The few occasions that the main deck let AP shells through are either 1.shells fired from extremely long range (so they don't autobounce off the main deck) and penetrate or 2.AP shells are of caliber large enough to overmatch the main deck.

-1.IIRC North Carolina can easily score a citadel off Yamato from the deck when firing from extreme range (upgraded FCS+range upgrade+spotter plane)

-2.And some stupid WWI era cruisers, for example the notorious Emerald, has deck thin enough that large caliber AP can overmatch them.

Edited by _Halcyon

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either way, 380mm is to light for T9

beside the Richelieu peerage ships would be Bismarck Class, Littorio, NC and Vanguard

All fit well in T8, 

Beside Richelieu should be the lead ships, and she never undergo  cold war moderinization - so at least normal line would be consistent

 

I really don't think the 380mm would do badly in Tier 9. Bismarck and Tirpitz see plenty of Tier 10 matches and they do alright with their main guns. After all, it's only specifically 27mm and 28mm plates that can autobounce a 380mm but not a 406mm. For every other penetration check they are basically the same, especially since the French 380s have very good penetration for their size.

 

Having their contemporaries at the same tier is a good point. From a historical perspective she would fit perfectly at Tier 8, and in a proper naval simulation she would be competitive with those ships. However, having all her firepower facing forward is a tremendous advantage for a battleship in this game, whereas in real life that was of relatively little importance (if I recall correctly, it was mostly done as a weight-saving measure to abide by treaty restrictions).

 

I fear that if we do get Richelieu at Tier 8, it will be quickly followed by a demoralising series of nerfs as she turns out to be seriously OP. I'd much rather a "historical" Richelieu at Tier 9 than a crippled husk of one at Tier 8.

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I really don't think the 380mm would do badly in Tier 9. Bismarck and Tirpitz see plenty of Tier 10 matches and they do alright with their main guns. After all, it's only specifically 27mm and 28mm plates that can autobounce a 380mm but not a 406mm. For every other penetration check they are basically the same, especially since the French 380s have very good penetration for their size.

 

Having their contemporaries at the same tier is a good point. From a historical perspective she would fit perfectly at Tier 8, and in a proper naval simulation she would be competitive with those ships. However, having all her firepower facing forward is a tremendous advantage for a battleship in this game, whereas in real life that was of relatively little importance (if I recall correctly, it was mostly done as a weight-saving measure to abide by treaty restrictions).

 

I fear that if we do get Richelieu at Tier 8, it will be quickly followed by a demoralising series of nerfs as she turns out to be seriously OP. I'd much rather a "historical" Richelieu at Tier 9 than a crippled husk of one at Tier 8.

 

Bow on ships for me, is Ez feast for Cruiser

also, Having All armanent forward doesnt always mean a good thing. 

 

380mm would not perform bad, but for its matchmaking.

its not exemplar either, with only 8 gun. you would feel undergunned, and not have reliable penetration on long range (and nature of T9 and T10 were mostly long range gunnery - like 70% of the time)

 

there also matter of Ship durability too

WG like to adjust ships Hitpoint with their displacement in RL

at 35.000 tons, she would be comparable to NC and S.Dakota

T9 Ships like Iowa were 10.000 tons heavier, which makes the Survivability of frenchy were lower than their counterpart by around 15.000 HP

which quite a lot 

Edited by humusz

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Ah, yeah, that's true. The hitpoints would definitely be a problem for Tier 9. There is a precedent for that sort of thing with Colorado, though, which gets a better Repair Party to compensate. Hopefully it won't be too long before we can see what the devs have come up with for the branch. The entire line of French BBs should be pretty interesting.

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Im sure there will some balancing for the 15 inch guns the Richelieu, alsace, and super-alsace. 

 

Dunkerque has a 28 second reload, and I'm sure T8-T10 will have the same, if not a faster, reload. 

 

I duno about you guys but I enjoy rapid firing battleships, even if smaller calibre guns (Scharnhorst, Bismarck, etc). 

 

Dont forget the 'broken' HE of the Dunkerque as well - on more than one occasion 8ve burnt Tier 8 battleships to death. To do this with a 12x15inch guns of a super-alsace would be a pleasure :teethhappy:

Edited by LordTyphoon

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Nope, richelieu should be T8, and T9 could be Alsase(three quad 380mm turrets), 8 380mm guns just is not enough for IX.

Alsace-class Battleship (french naval project which is abandoned due to... well, everybody knows, fall of france):

161012_alsace_01.jpg

Twelve 380mm guns comparing to nine 406mm or 420mm seems balanced to me. More barrels, less caliber, she would be a very fun ship to pilot at tier9.

Edited by cools0812

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Nope, richelieu should be T8, and T9 could be Alsase(three quad 380mm turrets), 8 380mm guns just is not enough for IX.

Alsace-class Battleship (french naval project which is abandoned due to... well, everybody knows, fall of france):

161012_alsace_01.jpg

Twelve 380mm guns comparing to nine 406mm or 420mm seems balanced to me. More barrels, less caliber, she would be a very fun ship to pilot at tier9.

 

Even with twelve 13" guns, she will still have a hard time against current tier IX's & X's.

 

She would have to be equipped with better armour or secondaries/AA or both to be more competitive.

 

We shall see......

Edited by LtDan_IceCream

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Even with twelve 13" guns, she will still have a hard time against current tier IX's & X's.

 

She would have to be equipped with better armour or secondaries/AA or both to be more competitive.

 

We shall see......

 

But what if she fires HE :trollface:

 

With the fire chance and 28 sec reload of the Dunkerque guns, an Alsace will burn enemy battleships very very fast. 

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But what if she fires HE :trollface:

 

With the fire chance and 28 sec reload of the Dunkerque guns, an Alsace will burn enemy battleships very very fast. 

 

no, at T9, assuming the 380s will be buffed from their historical reload to 25s like the Bismark's, and adding the fact that there's the ROF mod available, the relaod will be closer to 20s if the ship has AR

 

so, basically, a supercharged CA

Edited by drakon233

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Nope, richelieu should be T8, and T9 could be Alsase(three quad 380mm turrets), 8 380mm guns just is not enough for IX.

Alsace-class Battleship (french naval project which is abandoned due to... well, everybody knows, fall of france):

161012_alsace_01.jpg

Twelve 380mm guns comparing to nine 406mm or 420mm seems balanced to me. More barrels, less caliber, she would be a very fun ship to pilot at tier9.

IIRC Alsace projects had three basic designs

 

N°1 3*3 380mm

N°2  3*3 406mm

N°3 3*4 380mm

 

N°1 was selected. N°2 was rejected due to the necessity of developing a new type of gun. (French didn't own a 16" naval gun at that time) N°3 was rejected due to being too big and unnecessary gun counts.

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That's interesting. A 3 x 3 x 380m Alsace would fit at Tier 8 well enough. That's also where the Italian Littorio class will likely be placed. While Richelieu is certainly her predecessor, her all-forward armament layout would make her the superior ship in-game (all else being equal). The 3 x 4 x 380 version might even work at Tier 10 - slightly worse broadside firepower than Montana and GK, but much better bow-on firepower.

 

I wonder what we'll see...

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