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yobbo1972

Something to think about, Detection vs Gun ranges

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So now that detection range for DDs is the same as the gun ranges on that ship, is it worth while to upgrade the range of the guns on DDs ?

The reason I say this is this.

If the DD you are using has a max gun range when upgraded of say 12km and you spot a enemy DD on low HP that's 6km away and you know you can kill it with a few shots, you also see a enemy CA that's 11km away and is in your detection range, do you fire and kill the enemy DD knowing that when you do you will also be detected by the enemy CA ? and you will be spotted for the next 20 sec before you become undetected and that 20 sec is more than enough for the enemy CA to kill you?

Or do you not upgrade the gun range of the DD you are using and just have a stock range of  9 km ? Now in this case if you spot a enemy DD and shoot and kill it at 6km and the enemy CA is 11km away and because you only have 9 km gun range as soon as you kill the enemy DD your ship becomes undetected and the CA that is 11km away cant see you and therefore cant shoot and kill you now.

So is it better to have stock gun ranges now instead of upgrading them?

Edited by yobbo1972

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If you can reliably hit within that range then get it, if not then don't. The closer you are spotted is also easier for them to kill you.

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Super Tester
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Hitting my DD reliably at 11km when I dictate the engagement through superior concealment?

What kind of badcake amazecake player/cruiser combination would that be?

 

Nvm that I stopped using AFT on my DDs post cpt skill remake since there's better choices.

 

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yeah but I'm talking about saving XP when grinding so instead of spending XP on upgraded gun range  you have stock gun range and less chance of being detected by other enemy ships because your gun range is smaller

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Super Tester
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Very situational. 50/50 I would risk it to kill the DD and do "WASD hax" maneuver on incoming fire from enemy cruisers.

 

But yeah after the skill tree was re-work/re-balance & stealth firing was removed, I lost interest & some I regret researching the ship's gun range module. Somewhat futile from that point & on, so I went stealth & hunt destroyers instead then smoke & damage other ships.

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I though you talking about AFT. Was that in before the edit?

 

I pretty much always upgrade the gun range last. There have been only a couple of boats where I didn't.

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that was in there b4 the edited yes

because you can save time and XP if you don't upgrade the gun range on DDs and you can remain undetected longer, that 10% range increase can be the difference between you surviving or being sunk.

now Russian DDs might be different because they rely on long range shooting but other DDs don't.

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I would feel like pulling my hair out ;) if I couldn't finish someone off because they slipped out of range when there was an upgrade I could have installed. (with original proviso that I could expect to hit at that range)

Edited by keskparane

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I went without AFT for most DDs for this reason.

 

Though if a bloom/range for DDs was brought in id re-consider it. i.e. at max range you fire and rather than be lit up for 20 seconds, it could be 10 seconds etc as its further away. Not invisi-firing, but gives DDs some options.

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This is the main problem with the stealth fire removal.  Removing stealth fire only hurt a few ships, but increasing gun bloom to do it hurt almost all destroyers by making it much harder for them to drop off detection in a cap fight.  Those extra 20 seconds of being fired at are often the difference between dying early in a battle and surviving and having an important impact.

 

You may have noticed that DD's are dying in greater numbers than they used to early in the battle.  It's not uncommon to see most of the DD's dead after the opening few minutes, much more so than it used to be.  This is because of the gun bloom change.  Those DD's are now spotted much more than before, and that means they are taking much more damage.  With such a meagre health pool, any extra damage has serious impacts on their ability to have an impact on the battle.  Some DD captains have decided that this makes sailing DD's a lot less fun, hence the drop in DD population since 0.6.3.

 

In terms of the OP's premise of removing range modules, I started a few threads here and on reddit on exactly that issue.  A range upgrade is a buff in that you can shoot at ships further away, but it is also a nerf since it means there is more chance of you remaining spotted where you would previously have dropped off detection.

 

I think it depends on the ships you are sailing as to whether you keep the modules.  You have to look at the maximum effective gun range for their primary purpose.  So for Russian DD's, you want as much range as possible, because you can force most shots fired at you to miss through speed, range, and maneuvers.  For KM DD's, 11-12kms seems to be the sweet spot for effective use while minimising bloom.  For US DD's, it is 10-11kms.  For IJN DD's, basically as little as possible since stealth really is life for these ships, and guns are generally used for self defence only - I think about 9kms would be ideal, but unfortunately they just 'buffed' the range on these guns with the same patch that changed gun bloom mechanics.

 

For a few specific examples, on my Z-52 I use the range increase (12.1km), and on my Fletcher I don't (11.8km) and I wish I could get the range down further.  On all my Russian DD's I use the range increase and take AFT as well.  I don't sail IJN DD's (except for my Kami R, I have never really recovered from the removal of the old tier 8 Fubuki, such a good ship) because why would you?

 

I would quite like it if they introduced a captain skill or module that decreased range by 10-20%, I would definitely use that on some of my US DD's, they really suffer in their primary job of cap fighting with the change, ships like the Sims and Fletcher have really debilitatingly excessive gun blooms due to their unneeded range.

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Super Tester
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You may have noticed that DD's are dying in greater numbers than they used to early in the battle.

 It's not uncommon to see most of the DD's dead after the opening few minutes, much more so than it used to be. 

 

I can't deny that I've witnessed an increase in DDs sinking early, however...

I don't, and I'm just a average player.

 

And it's not like I'm hiding or only stealth firing torpedoes either, I'm right there, in the cap, watching way more than half

the DD players I meet being completely clueless on how to gain the upper hand in a DD duel, with or without team support.

 

That's actually what amuses me most about the stealth firing changes.

I never utilised it outside of one single ship, the Gremyashchy, and even then it was rare because I

have yet to find a cruiser or battleship player that can land consecutive salvoes on me unless I screw up my maneuvering.

So why should I stealth fire with a reduced hit chance at long range when I might aswell do it at 10km range after dipping into torpedo range?

 

Sure enough, I can't do it forever, especially with multiple ships targeting me, but... isn't that the whole point of it?

If a ship shoots me, it has a chance of hitting me, that is if the player can determine my evasive patterns, which is why I

usually change them during engagements.

 

The only thing that has changed now is that I usually have to dodge bullets for a few more seconds or use smoke in those few occasions where

simple evasive maneuvers won't get me far.

 


 

To be honest, this is just another case of an overarching problem with the WoWS playerbase.

A lot of players seem to be stuck in certain thought patterns without even realising that they've boxed themselves

into one particular corner, all while there's a whole new world just around it...

 

One of my most favourite examples is the typical idea: "JP DDs are torpedo boats."

With at best a wobbly "Oh yeah, outside of Akizuki."

 

Meanwhile, since alpha, there hasn't been a single JP DD without usable guns, effectively making them hybrids.

Sure enough, from Umikaze to Minekaze they're great at utilizing their concealment to launch torpedoes without ever being spotted,

but regardless they all always had the guns to deal a decent amount of damage to other DDs, cruisers and BB superstructures.

 

Not as much as the average RU DD and not at the firing rate of a US DD, but somewhere between both.

 

Mutsuki? Yeah, very nice but slow torpedoes, but her guns... you know you've seen it all when a (Old tier VI) Mutsuki player

beats up a Farragut, it takes some time and several engagements, but played correctly a Mutsuki can begin every engagement on it's

terms, which means the Farragut won't have time to fire accurately and miss most if not all salvoes.

 

Now look at today's Minekaze, Hatsuharu or Akatsuki/Shiratsuyu.

They all field a good number of very strong guns and are all capable of actively fighting other DDs of their own tier,

to a degree even higher tier DDs.

 

Yet, for some reason, people are stuck in this mindset that US/RU DDs rule supreme

over JP DDs when it comes to cap contesting or DD duels.

 

 

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Super Tester
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i never take AFT or Upgrade Gun range.

 

Lets say a sims with AFT (Take for AA Build). Then u accidentally fire 1 gun. You will get detected from 15km. A BB from spawn area can see u :hiding:

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i never take AFT or Upgrade Gun range.

 

Lets say a sims with AFT (Take for AA Build). Then u accidentally fire 1 gun. You will get detected from 15km. A BB from spawn area can see u :hiding:

 

​When I forget to turn off the trackpad on my laptop and my palm touches it :(

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I wouldnt go for Gun Range, just so i can maximize my Stealth capabilities.  I noticed, that my ability to stay hidden in Any DD.  (I have US, German, IJN and polish) is really dependent on how much i Shoot my guns in cover.  So, in order to detect more, i just extend my scouting range a bit and make sure i have friendly ships covering me, though i dont go too far.

My Damage has improved so as my winrate since the removal of stealth fire.

 

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Can only comment really on the IJN DD's but once you get to about 8 to 10 km firing range it can be either way, you just need to adjust your play to suit on the platforms with 12.7cm guns. I'd say that the top FCS of the Akizuki gives it extra flexibility that's really needed (adding AFT for cruiser like range isn't) during skirmishes and harassment.

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Thank you guys for the comments.

you might as well save the XP and not upgrade the gun ranges on most ships all but the Russian DD

 

 

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This is the main problem with the stealth fire removal.  Removing stealth fire only hurt a few ships, but increasing gun bloom to do it hurt almost all destroyers by making it much harder for them to drop off detection in a cap fight.  Those extra 20 seconds of being fired at are often the difference between dying early in a battle and surviving and having an important impact.

 

You may have noticed that DD's are dying in greater numbers than they used to early in the battle.  It's not uncommon to see most of the DD's dead after the opening few minutes, much more so than it used to be.  This is because of the gun bloom change.  Those DD's are now spotted much more than before, and that means they are taking much more damage.  With such a meagre health pool, any extra damage has serious impacts on their ability to have an impact on the battle.  Some DD captains have decided that this makes sailing DD's a lot less fun, hence the drop in DD population since 0.6.3.

 

In terms of the OP's premise of removing range modules, I started a few threads here and on reddit on exactly that issue.  A range upgrade is a buff in that you can shoot at ships further away, but it is also a nerf since it means there is more chance of you remaining spotted where you would previously have dropped off detection.

 

I think it depends on the ships you are sailing as to whether you keep the modules.  You have to look at the maximum effective gun range for their primary purpose.  So for Russian DD's, you want as much range as possible, because you can force most shots fired at you to miss through speed, range, and maneuvers.  For KM DD's, 11-12kms seems to be the sweet spot for effective use while minimising bloom.  For US DD's, it is 10-11kms.  For IJN DD's, basically as little as possible since stealth really is life for these ships, and guns are generally used for self defence only - I think about 9kms would be ideal, but unfortunately they just 'buffed' the range on these guns with the same patch that changed gun bloom mechanics.

 

For a few specific examples, on my Z-52 I use the range increase (12.1km), and on my Fletcher I don't (11.8km) and I wish I could get the range down further.  On all my Russian DD's I use the range increase and take AFT as well.  I don't sail IJN DD's (except for my Kami R, I have never really recovered from the removal of the old tier 8 Fubuki, such a good ship) because why would you?

 

I would quite like it if they introduced a captain skill or module that decreased range by 10-20%, I would definitely use that on some of my US DD's, they really suffer in their primary job of cap fighting with the change, ships like the Sims and Fletcher have really debilitatingly excessive gun blooms due to their unneeded range.

Hmm since the stealth fire has been removed some DD's are performing better.  German and Russian DD's seem to improve and last longer in battles.  Hell i never sat back and stealth fire...i guess this is why my W/R has gone up on DD's

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doesn't matter - if you shoot at the DD at 6KM away you will get lit for everyone anyways as you will be in their spotting range.....

 

Obviously.

 

It's what happens when that DD dies or smokes up or goes behind cover that is the issue.  You would have previously most likely have dropped detection straight away, but now you're often spotted by some BB on the other side of the map and get another 20 secs of incoming fire.  That can often kill you or at least take away a lot of your health, making you much less of a threat in the game.  This is all damage you wouldn't have taken before 0.6.3.

 

This is the reason why DD's are dying earlier, why there are less of them around, and why German DD's suddenly seem quite good, relatively speaking.

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