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Nishthedestroyer

German battleship accuracy!

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Oh it's a different type of post this time.  

 

ITS A WHINGE. 

 

Dispersion is a characteristic of Kreigsmarine battleships. The game balance compensates for it with a higher rate of fire, and stronger secondaries. 

 

Ergo, the closer you get, the more proportionally dangerous you become to your enemy. Which is a good thing, it kinda discourages sniping. Use the ships' very good armour (also characteristic of KMS BBs) to get in close. 

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USS Massachusetts scored an average dispersion pattern with 5.86 guns better than 380mm SK C/34's single gun dispersion value.

Let me explain this. Massachusetts the battleship, in real combat action, scored better accuracy than Bismarck's gun in the testing field. The SK C/34 gun itself won't allow Bismarck to own better accuracy than the USN fast battleships.

The IJN values are also incredible. During battle off Samar, destroyer USS Johnston received three direct hits from large caliber main battery from almost 20km away in a single salvo, most likely from Yamato.

German engineering? Excellent accuracy? Nope.

Edited by _Halcyon

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Super Tester
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When u miss enemy ships: buff this already!!!

When u get critadeled: seriously? Nerf this pleaaaaase

 

German BB line is quite balanced than american BBs

Need to buff  Montana first

Edited by yukionfire

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If real life logic is applied in this game then the USN players don't even need to aim because they have their fire director doing that for them. And they call that aimbot in this game.

IIRC all Dreadnoughts own fire control directors, at least in some part of their serving time. Even HMS Dreadnought, the first one of this kind, received a director during a refit.

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When u miss enemy ships: buff this already!!!

When u get critadeled: seriously? Nerf this pleaaaaase

 

German BB line is quite balanced than american BBs

Need to buff  Montana first

Montana already received a much needed buff in 0.5.12.1.

The mid section hull plating was buffed from 29mm to 38mm.

Which is good enough.

>when angled properly, Yamato's 460mm can have a real hard time against you. Just like how Zao's troll armor trolled all BB except Yamato. Before this buff, not only 460mm but also 420mm can overmatch your upper deck and enjoy sweet penetration damage.

>Mid section now enjoy immunity against 203mm and 220mm HE.(excluding the superstructure of course) Before this buff, even 180mm can penetrate that part and get penetration damage.

Now Montana is decent and competitive for a T10 battleship.

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[SIF]
Super Tester
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Please buff the accuracy of the Km battleships in real life they had excellent accuracy

 

Learn2play.

You asked for advice about KMBB's and were told very clearly that they are brawlers that lack long range accuracy.   or are you just not reading your own threads.

 

 

 

 

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Super Tester
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In real life and current day there is no "major" war and "all" of humanity lives in peace and tranquility,

hence I would say that WG should change this game into a trading sim with the occasional coop mission

to rescue refugees before their makeshift boats sink.

 

Maybe these militaristic 'ribbons' could also be changed into stars or smileys?

You get two smileys for participating and one for saving refugees, after all we all

know that it's the taking part that counts.

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in real life,

DDs dont reload torpedoes in a battle,

aircraft carrier doesnt come close,

Steel cant be ignited,

Citadel hit means detonation,

Dive bombers dont drop HE,

Be mature!!! This is a game!!!

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... I Wonder if he will read the post he posted, including this :P

 

I wonder if he will ask another question for people to ravage upon :trollface:

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The IJN values are also incredible. During battle off Samar, destroyer USS Johnston received three direct hits from large caliber main battery from almost 20km away in a single salvo, most likely from Yamato.

German engineering? Excellent accuracy? Nope.

Guess which nation hold the longest naval gunfire hit.

 

Guess what ship from what nation blow up the hood in 8 minutes. And hit POW 4 times in under 10 minutes.

 

Non radar gunnery? German was probably the best. Against radar assisted USN fast BBs? Of course they're better. But against IJN? Nah. German would win  accuracy duel all day. 

 

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Beta Tester
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Guess which nation hold the longest naval gunfire hit.

 

Guess what ship from what nation blow up the hood in 8 minutes. And hit POW 4 times in under 10 minutes.

 

Non radar gunnery? German was probably the best. Against radar assisted USN fast BBs? Of course they're better. But against IJN? Nah. German would win  accuracy duel all day. 

 

 

nope, accuracy and dispersion is NOT the same thing we're talking here.

Radar cannot do anything about gun dispersion.

Edited by Shiroyasha_Gintoki

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Guess which nation hold the longest naval gunfire hit.

 

Guess what ship from what nation blow up the hood in 8 minutes. And hit POW 4 times in under 10 minutes.

 

Non radar gunnery? German was probably the best. Against radar assisted USN fast BBs? Of course they're better. But against IJN? Nah. German would win  accuracy duel all day. 

 

Longest naval gun hit

USS Massachusetts hitting Jean Bart(Jean Bart was not finished at that time so this is a moving to stationary hit).

If you want to mention Scharn, that's a confirmed moving to moving hit, be precise. And that's in competition with Warspite which is a WWI ship.

And Scharn's was hitting a CV which clearly was a bigger target due to the higher freeboard.

Oh BTW, Yamato's AB gun salvo straddled/hit(according to different sources) USS White Plains in a really tight pattern and has damaged the CVE from over 30000 Yards away.

 

Denmark Strait?

POW performed at least equally well.

At 0553, POW started firing at Bismarck 26500 Yards

0556, 21150 Yards, sixth salvo, hit. Broken Bismarck's front fuel tank.

0557, 18250, ninth salvo, hit. Underwater hit, destroyed a power generator and flooded a machinery.

0559, 16150, 11th salvo, hit. Destoryed a boat onboard Bismarck.

↑three hits in three minutes

Before 0559, X turret never fired. Also POW faced serious problem with the reliability of the A and X quad turrets.

0600, Hood sunk, POW turned to retreat.

You may notice how fast the distance drew close. POW drew close in an angled position which also meant a hard time for her director. POW's main RF was flooded as well. But even with all these difficulties, POW scored 3hits/59shots. Bismarck 6(2Hood 4POW)/93shots. Bismarck however, enjoyed a far better engaging position, and of the six shots, five were scored between 15300-17200.

Oh should I mention that Bismarck never scored a hit during her final battle even tho her armament system was unharmed in the beginning?

German Engineering is a joke, it's just that simple.

Edited by _Halcyon

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Guinness world record stated

 

Longest range hit by a ship's gun is a tie between Scharnhorst and Warspite. Both of them hit at around 24km. 

The record is open for any hit by a ship's gun, both on a stationary or a moving target.

 

Massachusetts hit a stationary JB at around 21km. And hit 7 after at least 200 shells. Impressive, but still beaten by Scharn and Warspite. 

 

There's no difference on hitting HMS Glorious or the Guilero Cesare. Both are a hit, and both hit are a crippling one.

 

Bismarck perform a better gunnery than POW. More hits, more shell shot, and a better hit percentage. Even without radar assistance.

 

German engineering is a joke? Keep in mind.

We can walk on the moon because of German engineering.

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Guinness world record stated

 

Longest range hit by a ship's gun is a tie between Scharnhorst and Warspite. Both of them hit at around 24km. 

The record is open for any hit by a ship's gun, both on a stationary or a moving target.

 

Massachusetts hit a stationary JB at around 21km. And hit 7 after at least 200 shells. Impressive, but still beaten by Scharn and Warspite. 

 

There's no difference on hitting HMS Glorious or the Guilero Cesare. Both are a hit, and both hit are a crippling one.

 

Bismarck perform a better gunnery than POW. More hits, more shell shot, and a better hit percentage. Even without radar assistance.

 

German engineering is a joke? Keep in mind.

We can walk on the moon because of German engineering.

Jean Bart's first hit received, penetrating the 152mm secondary magazine, has an angle of fall of ~33°.

This is the stats of 16"/45 Mark 6 firing 2700 lbs AP Mark 8

Range/Belt Penetration/Deck Penetration/Striking Velocity/Angle of fall

25,000 yards (22,860 m)
15.05" (382 mm)
5.76" (146 mm)
1,521 fps (463 mps)
25.4
30,000 yards (27,432 m)
12.77" (324 mm)
7.62" (194 mm)
1,490 fps (454 mps)
34.1

 

Source: NavWaeps

Damn it I should have copied the entire chart

So this hit is scored at a range very close to 30000 Yards, which is 27.4km, more than both Scharn and Warspite.

Edit: checked, 29600 Yards.

 

"Hitting a CV and a BB is no difference" is not a valid argument. It's just like a sniper scored a headshot 1km away, and my cat, Eggie the British Shorthair, fired a shot that hit something 1km away, suppose he knows anything other than sleeping and eating. And I say it's no difference, cuz they both hit, and both 1km away. Of course this argument is not valid, but it's the same thing as your argument that hitting a BB and a CV is no difference.

 

Denmark Strait, while the stats seem to favor Bismarck, but look into it, look deep into the stats.

 

I forgot this.

My original reply was talking about the dispersion value, which depends on how the ship was designed and constructed, and the experience of individual turret crew.(RNG in game) USN fast battleships and IJN battleships are good at this, while KM, meh.

Not about the MPI, which depends on the FCS director.(player in game)

Edited by _Halcyon

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Super Tester
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USS Massachusetts scored an average dispersion pattern with 5.86 guns better than 380mm SK C/34's single gun dispersion value.

Let me explain this. Massachusetts the battleship, in real combat action, scored better accuracy than Bismarck's gun in the testing field. The SK C/34 gun itself won't allow Bismarck to own better accuracy than the USN fast battleships.

The IJN values are also incredible. During battle off Samar, destroyer USS Johnston received three direct hits from large caliber main battery from almost 20km away in a single salvo, most likely from Yamato.

German engineering? Excellent accuracy? Nope.

 

Iowa engaged the Japanese destroyer Nowaki at a range of 35,700 yards (32.6 km) and straddled her, setting the record for the longest-ranged straddle in history. Iowa claimed a hit, which the Japanese report as slplinter damage

DD is even smaller than a CVE, and also much faster, more easier to perform maneuver than the CVE.

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Iowa engaged the Japanese destroyer Nowaki at a range of 35,700 yards (32.6 km) and straddled her, setting the record for the longest-ranged straddle in history. Iowa claimed a hit, which the Japanese report as slplinter damage

DD is even smaller than a CVE, and also much faster, more easier to perform maneuver than the CVE.

Yup. Both Iowa and Yamato demonstrated excellent gunnery skills.

Also, Nowaki's captain demonstrated excellent command. One article I read claimed he used the following pattern to prevent hits

1.observe the battleships' muzzle flash

2.change course by 45°

3.keep the altered course until the shells land

4.resume the original course

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To OP: KM BBs are brawlers, you close in to your target and not worry about dispersion, unless of course you suck at leading properly.

 

But it doesn't mean you should always go close in. There might be some opportunities where firing at the perfect target from long range would be the best course of action even with the horrible dispersion at long range, like this one: 

 

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Massachusetts hit at 27km is nothing more than a blind claim. No one can know the exact impact angle of the shell. At the end, this blind claim wasn't even taken seriously. Massachusetts radar even malfunctioning at the time. Making a hit from 27km nothing more than your imagination. And if USN actually tried to claim this hit. USS Massachusetts would be the ship in the Guinness world record book. Not Scharnhorst and Warspite.

 

If you actually thinking KM BB dispersion as bad irl. You're being ridiculously ignorant. Bismarck's gunnery performance on Denmark strait alone is already good. With 6,45% hit chance, without radar assistance. I never read any source stating German BB has any dispersion problems. Unlike French quads, and Littorio's 15".

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Massachusetts hit at 27km is nothing more than a blind claim. No one can know the exact impact angle of the shell. At the end, this blind claim wasn't even taken seriously. Massachusetts radar even malfunctioning at the time. Making a hit from 27km nothing more than your imagination. And if USN actually tried to claim this hit. USS Massachusetts would be the ship in the Guinness world record book. Not Scharnhorst and Warspite.

 

If you actually thinking KM BB dispersion as bad irl. You're being ridiculously ignorant. Bismarck's gunnery performance on Denmark strait alone is already good. With 6,45% hit chance, without radar assistance. I never read any source stating German BB has any dispersion problems. Unlike French quads, and Littorio's 15".

USN may not know the falling angle of that shell, at least during the war.

But what about the French? Do you think they will not examine what kind of damage their ship received? It's their ship! It's the same ship that they repaired and finished post war! That shell penetrated right into the 152mm magazine which can possibly lead to a detonation(should Jean Bart be completed by that time), do you think the French are stupid enough not to examine and fix the problem in future design? Mind you they have more courage than most people in WoWS ASIA server.

I'll put my trust on official records and reports more than some world record stuff.

 

Problem with 380mm SK C/34's dispersion do exist. It's not that notorious, but a comparison will show the difference.

During Massachusetts' attack om Jean Bart, she fired 134 salvoes and a total of 786 shells at a range between 20k-30k Yrds. The dispersion pattern was between 200-300 Yrds. This is what obtained from a real battle.

Now the 380mm SK C/34. A single 380mm gun obtained a 50% zone of about 120m at the same distance. And the Germans' own gunnery material claimed about 50% of the shells will fall into 1/4 of the pattern (50% zone), while 82% of the shells fall into 1/2 the pattern, 96% of the shells will fall into 3/4 of the pattern. So multiply 120m by two or three, and we get… 240m-360m. Now compare Massachusetts' value…

Oh wait, what was the shells and salvoes again? Right, 134 salvoes and 786 shells. That's an average of 5.87 shells per salvo. And the SK C/34? Yup it's from a single gun testing. And more guns will clearly make dispersion pattern worse.

Conclusion time, 380mm SK C/34's dispersion problem? It do exist. It's not notorious, but it's still bad. Still, bad.

 

BTW RADAR does not affect the pattern. Mentioning RADAR again and again is just pointless. So stop putting hit ratio into the discussion which is a result of dispersion and MPI. I'm discussing the dispersion value here which is what the accuracy in game means. MPI depends on the player.

Edited by _Halcyon

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