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Admiral_Turing

It's time to give a T7 tech tree cruiser radar

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Even if Fiji gets a radar, it won't work. And as all tech tree RN CL do, the radar is in the smoke slot, and almost everyone pick smoke over radar.

The standard radar range of T7 is between 8.4 and 8.5km.

The problem is with concealment. Belfast can be upgraded to 8.7km concealment, so you just need to go a bit ahead after detected and pop radar. But for Fiji, 9.8km fully upgraded, so utilizing radar can be far more difficult.

↑purely fictional, as I've never owned a 8.7km Belfast until recent ranked, which proved two months can turn a person doing fairly well into a total noob.(I haven't played Belfast in PvP for two months and my Belfast performed totally noob in ranked)

Indianapolis do need a radar to be unique and attractive. Yes she was better than Pepsicola, but which makes her stand out against a Myoko? Especially because most people own a colorful Myoko or two or… four.

But putting radar on Atlanta… I don't know what was WG thinking, but Atlanta was attractive enough for anyone who want to troll a CV or have some fun.

For Belfast, there's Fiji in the same tier. Belfast's AP sucks compared to Fiji, meaning she can't rip any not-so-well angled ship apart like Fiji does. And she doesn't get torp(historical fact). And the maneuverability is worse(a bit less than 600m circle against a bit less than 700). And she doesn't get repair party. So as a compensation, she gets concealment/maneuverability slot and radar to counter her survivability/maneuverability issue and the problem of smoke being charged at(Fiji can be extremely devastating against anything that is even angled but Belfast can't, so radar can let her counter smoke charge at longer range).

But the concealment+radar caused her to be able to catch DD on her own, an ability that no other T7 cruiser owned. And DD affect how a battle goes much. No DD means no cap, no spot, no smoke, no counter smoke torps…

So to solve Belfast's high WR, it's more than just add a radar on some random T7 cruiser.

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Belfast has no torps and inferior AP. Fine, give it HE. Belfast also has no heal. Fine, give it t8 upgrade slot, and stealth fire ability. Now, why in the bloody world it still has radar? So it becomes "unique" and people will throw money at it? Screw you WG.

 

I oppose any P2W aspect in the game, and now WG gives a consumable as strong as radar on 3 premium ship, a consumable none of their tech tree counterpart have. That fact really pisses me off.

 

Looking at how they make Scharnhorst(which in my opinion it's the best premium ship WG ever sell) I have faith on the balancing team, I believe they can make a truly unique addition to the game in form of premiums. But then Belfast came out, Black came out. The balancing team doesn't do anything more than copy-pasting ships and giving it random consumables to make it "UNIQUE". Which is just disappointing.

 

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I would vote for Murica to get earlier access to radar at tier 7. There are very much support utility class ship from tier 5 to 10 focusing on non surface direct action.

Beside Pepsi lack the torp , giving it a 7km radar is fine ( still worse than Indi ).

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Belfast has no torps and inferior AP. Fine, give it HE. Belfast also has no heal. Fine, give it t8 upgrade slot, and stealth fire ability. Now, why in the bloody world it still has radar? So it becomes "unique" and people will throw money at it? Screw you WG.

 

I oppose any P2W aspect in the game, and now WG gives a consumable as strong as radar on 3 premium ship, a consumable none of their tech tree counterpart have. That fact really pisses me off.

 

Looking at how they make Scharnhorst(which in my opinion it's the best premium ship WG ever sell) I have faith on the balancing team, I believe they can make a truly unique addition to the game in form of premiums. But then Belfast came out, Black came out. The balancing team doesn't do anything more than copy-pasting ships and giving it random consumables to make it "UNIQUE". Which is just disappointing.

 

Belfast's invisifire ability isn't exactly useful, the shell speed is very slow and can have a hard time maintain hits. HE isn't exactly a compensation for having less useful AP. Standard Brit AP can be more powerful than non-IFHE 152mm HE in almost any time.(I have tried a few battles with both ship using the same captain and have decided to stick with Fiji, fantastic AP) And torps can make one think twice before charging Fiji's smoke, but for Belfast, he had to leave his smoke or struggle before dying.

So having radar can give Belfast the ability to strike smoke chargers at longer range, for fighting cruisers and battleships I'd say the difference between Fiji and Belfast is was* reasonable and balanced.

*IFHE RULES!

 

But there's DD, and Belfast's radar combined with concealment and high RoF guns, that's the difference.

Take this example, New Orleans and Chapayev both have radar, but which one would you prefer for a DD hunt? Absolutely Chapayev, having a radar range longer or similar to concealment means you won't pop your radar for nothing.

That's what makes Belfast, not just a radar consumable.

 

So if something has to be done to fix this, simply adding a radar on a T7 cruiser won't be the answer. Indianapolis do have radar, but the concealment usually means you pop your radar for nothing or you die before actually being able to use the radar.

(Edited to make it more readable)

Edited by _Halcyon

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Belfast, Atlanta, and Indianapolis have it.

 

No solid reason why Pensacola and Schors shouldn't have it.

 

Heck, Fiji should have it to.

 

Screw you "unique" premiums.

 

But if they do this, how are WG meant to push the premium store ships with radar so heavily?!?! 

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Beta Tester
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Most Belfast are predicable, when they pop smoke they sit still in it. So if you have torps just unload them at the smoke.

As a side funny note, in a ranked game, a Belfast with 50% hp popped smoke to hide from my Blysk and an Akatsuki. A DD killing beast hiding from 2 DD was funny, anyway his smoke didnt protect him from my torps.

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Belfast's invisifire ability isn't exactly useful, the shell speed is very slow and can have a hard time maintain hits. HE isn't exactly a compensation for having less useful AP. Standard Brit AP can be more powerful than non-IFHE 152mm HE in almost any time.(I have tried a few battles with both ship using the same captain and have decided to stick with Fiji, fantastic AP) And torps can make one think twice before charging Fiji's smoke, but for Belfast, he had to leave his smoke or struggle before dying.

So having radar can give Belfast the ability to strike smoke chargers at longer range, for fighting cruisers and battleships I'd say the difference between Fiji and Belfast is was* reasonable and balanced.

*IFHE RULES!

 

But there's DD, and Belfast's radar combined with concealment and high RoF guns, that's the difference.

Take this example, New Orleans and Chapayev both have radar, but which one would you prefer for a DD hunt? Absolutely Chapayev, having a radar range longer or similar to concealment means you won't pop your radar for nothing.

That's what makes Belfast, not just a radar consumable.

 

So if something has to be done to fix this, simply adding a radar on a T7 cruiser won't be the answer. Indianapolis do have radar, but the concealment usually means you pop your radar for nothing or you die before actually being able to use the radar.

(Edited to make it more readable)

 

Any RN ship past tier 6 has low shell speed, Cleveland level, 10s to get 13.5km. Not as bad as Atlanta or US DD level tho, 13s.

No, Fiji can't even win a gun duel with DD, AP will bounce a lot. Seriously, i was think Fiji a good ship but apparently not.

Belfast has the same shell speed ? Idk, but seems like the same, but still she has HE.

 

I would still challenge Fiji in a gun duel with DD, but it is suicidal to do with Belfast.

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Any RN ship past tier 6 has low shell speed, Cleveland level, 10s to get 13.5km. Not as bad as Atlanta or US DD level tho, 13s.

No, Fiji can't even win a gun duel with DD, AP will bounce a lot. Seriously, i was think Fiji a good ship but apparently not.

Belfast has the same shell speed ? Idk, but seems like the same, but still she has HE.

 

I would still challenge Fiji in a gun duel with DD, but it is suicidal to do with Belfast.

fiji kills DDs faster then belfasts 

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fiji kills DDs faster then belfasts 

 

Nope, she just kill faster to angled DD. Give her flank or bow, and bounce a lot.

I told you at discord, about a Fiji fail to kill Gaede with 2k HP left, she was 2-3 km away from me.

I tried to duel Fiji at ranked lately, with Maas, was 8km away. The best dmg she could do was 1k per salvo, when hitting my superstructure.

The faster way to try it, is by using Coop, they bow tank like no tomorrow.

I tried Minotaur at PT, therefore i dropped my schedule to uptier my RN line.

 

Edited by Zwelivelle

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Any RN ship past tier 6 has low shell speed, Cleveland level, 10s to get 13.5km. Not as bad as Atlanta or US DD level tho, 13s.

No, Fiji can't even win a gun duel with DD, AP will bounce a lot. Seriously, i was think Fiji a good ship but apparently not.

Belfast has the same shell speed ? Idk, but seems like the same, but still she has HE.

 

I would still challenge Fiji in a gun duel with DD, but it is suicidal to do with Belfast.

IIRC Belfast's shell speed is the same as standard RN CL in T6-8.

Fiji can lolpen angled DD with ease, only bow/stern DD are problematic.

If the DD decide to bow tank you, it's getting simple. He will be forced to keep a direct bow on position against you. If he isn't supported and is going forward, you go up and ram him. If he is supported, ask your teammates to fire at that DD, as a straight sailing DD can be easy to hit.

Stern stance, you just don't engage.

Gun duel with Belfast, not always suicide. If the Belfast isn't a concealment setup. For example my Belfast was a 11km detection ship before 0.6.0, and one can surely troll me in a Kiev.

Edited by _Halcyon

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IIRC Belfast's shell speed is the same as standard RN CL in T6-8.

Fiji can lolpen angled DD with ease, only bow/stern DD are problematic.

If the DD decide to bow tank you, it's getting simple. He will be forced to keep a direct bow on position against you. If he isn't supported and is going forward, you go up and ram him. If he is supported, ask your teammates to fire at that DD, as a straight sailing DD can be easy to hit.

Stern stance, you just don't engage.

Gun duel with Belfast, not always suicide. If the Belfast isn't a concealment setup. For example my Belfast was a 11km detection ship before 0.6.0, and one can surely troll me in a Kiev.

 

Nope, go to port, notice the shell speed of emerald, leander, and fiji respectively. Leander is a bit faster than Fiji.

Many people trying to stern chase my DD using Fiji, i'll tell them how it is like to be lit on fire.

Edited by Zwelivelle

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Don't derail the thread guys.

 

Anyway, the power-creep is real with premium ships. And Business Team >> Balancing Team. I wouldn't be surprised to see if the number of Belfast were sold is more than many other Premium ships that came before her. And despite being a relatively new ship, WG pushed this in premium shop iterations too many times already.

 

There have been balanced premium ships released in the past. All the premium ships had something extra that other's from the same tier didn't have but had certain drawbacks as well. Look at german or us premium battleships. These days, they are doing random stuffs like putting a Nagato class at T6, slapping all kinds of consumables to whatever tier they want etc. Many premium ships have consumables from 1 tier higher. So in that case Belfast having RADAR wasn't really a problem. But T8 upgrade slot? I have no clue what that had to be there.

 

Also, if you look at the recent skill changes and recent tech tree reworks, the kinda nerf the regular ships of same tier to make the premiums look more appealing. And look, before kutuzov was a good premium and now after the rework of skill, Kutuzov is an OP premium. Any changes they make usually benefit the premiums (or at least for some of them) and the policy that they will never nerf the premiums also shuts down the possibility to further balance the ships in future.

 

So what Admiral Turing says is only other option. You won't nerf premiums, so at least make regular tech tree ships their equivalent. Stop the power creep.

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Nope, go to port, notice the shell speed of emerald, leander, and fiji respectively. Leander is a bit faster than Fiji.

Many people trying to stern chase my DD using Fiji, i'll tell them how it is like to be lit on fire.

Emerald is having faster IS, but not Leander.

Emerald's in-game gun is a fictional one.

152 mm/45 CPXIV

AP Shell152 mm AP 4crh SC

Initial AP Shell Velocity936 m./s

Stats from wargaming wiki

Historically Mark XII gun never used supercharge with 4crh shells. And the supercharge was only issued to two gunboats and was used with new 6crh shells.

Leander-Edinburgh are using the same guns in different mounts. The 152mm/50 BL Mark XXIII.

Here are the stats from wargaming wiki

Leander

 

Main Battery

Fiji

 

Main Battery

Belfast

 

Main Battery

Historically, Mark XII and XXIII never owned a AP shell. The Brits only got 6" AP shell for the post war QF Mark N5(in-game Neptune and Minotaur, historically the Tiger class)

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Would like it for Pensacola/Fiji too, but it'll probably make the devs rebalance a lot of things just to accommodate it (inb4 salty DD captains complain about that).

 

I would even settle for something like the Indy's radar, with shorter duration.

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Don't derail the thread guys.

 

Anyway, the power-creep is real with premium ships. And Business Team >> Balancing Team. I wouldn't be surprised to see if the number of Belfast were sold is more than many other Premium ships that came before her. And despite being a relatively new ship, WG pushed this in premium shop iterations too many times already.

 

There have been balanced premium ships released in the past. All the premium ships had something extra that other's from the same tier didn't have but had certain drawbacks as well. Look at german or us premium battleships. These days, they are doing random stuffs like putting a Nagato class at T6, slapping all kinds of consumables to whatever tier they want etc. Many premium ships have consumables from 1 tier higher. So in that case Belfast having RADAR wasn't really a problem. But T8 upgrade slot? I have no clue what that had to be there.

 

Also, if you look at the recent skill changes and recent tech tree reworks, the kinda nerf the regular ships of same tier to make the premiums look more appealing. And look, before kutuzov was a good premium and now after the rework of skill, Kutuzov is an OP premium. Any changes they make usually benefit the premiums (or at least for some of them) and the policy that they will never nerf the premiums also shuts down the possibility to further balance the ships in future.

 

So what Admiral Turing says is only other option. You won't nerf premiums, so at least make regular tech tree ships their equivalent. Stop the power creep.

Like I said above, simply providing a radar to a T7 cruiser won't solve the problem. Unless the radar has range close to the ship's concealment. I've never seen much salt about Indianapolis or Atlanta's radar as a DD can spot them early and run away without getting into the radar range. But Belfast… Nope, 250m concealment-radar range difference is too short for any attempt to run.

 

I think the T8 slot was compensating for the lack of heal/less maneuverability. So one can pick either hiding to survive or fast rudder shift. (Fiji has 590m radius and Belfast has 680m, and if both take only rudder mod2, Fiji gets better shift time)

But this has allowed Belfast to get a concealment≈radar stat and thus the only one cruiser to have the ability to solo hunt DD. That's why Belfast is reaching the top WR while Indianapolis and Atlanta never received much salt.

 

And as no one else owned a concealment slot in T7, if something has to be done to fix the Belfast problem, the radar added will be at least ~10km range.(which means a better range than T8 if it's for USN or RN, so it has to be the Soviets, but that will be about 11km)

 

 

Is the new skill tree nerfing tech tree ships? IFHE can be utilized by Budyonny all the way to Dimitry, not just MK benefits from it. And I surely enjoyed cheap 8.8km concealment when I was grinding Leander. The smoke screen skill works great for all Brit cruisers above T5, not just Belfast. On the other hand, some Saipan players totally salt at the cheaper AS and DFE which means they can no longer seal club Hiryu and Ranger grinding though the line.

Yes some premiums are more appealing, but their tech tree counterparts also benefited. WG surely has made some OP premiums, but 0.6.0's new skill tree? I think no. But the earlier(early 2016 IIRC) skill change was surely beneficial to Mikhail Kutuzov while nerfing Mogami. MK users no longer need to pick between AFT and DE, and EM is no longer a must. While Mogami has to dance through the rain of the shells and struggle to get her guns in place.

Edited by _Halcyon

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Is the new skill tree nerfing tech tree ships? IFHE can be utilized by Budyonny all the way to Dimitry, not just MK benefits from it. And I surely enjoyed cheap 8.8km concealment when I was grinding Leander. The smoke screen skill works great for all Brit cruisers above T5, not just Belfast. On the other hand, some Saipan players totally salt at the cheaper AS and DFE which means they can no longer seal club Hiryu and Ranger grinding though the line.

Yes some premiums are more appealing, but their tech tree counterparts also benefited. WG surely has made some OP premiums, but 0.6.0's new skill tree? I think no. But the earlier(early 2016 IIRC) skill change was surely beneficial to Mikhail Kutuzov while nerfing Mogami. MK users no longer need to pick between AFT and DE, and EM is no longer a must. While Mogami has to dance through the rain of the shells and struggle to get her guns in place.

 

As you have quoted me, if you re-read that again, I did not say skill rework is not beneficial to regular ships. I said there were some nerfs to tech tree counterparts recently and the skill rework is making already almost op ships totally op and much more appealing for people to buy. The point is, first you release OP ships. Then you add skills that will make the OP ships even more OP. Sales go up sky high.

Edited by icy_phoenix

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Yes, nerf the shit out of the Belfast. Nerf it hard like the Type 59. I will not allow greedy wallet warriors to govern the ways that the game is played and War Gaming should immediately nerf the Belfast. I've never seen War Gaming release such overpowered vehicles. I have no idea what the hell War Gaming was thinking when they released a tier 7 ship that a tier 4 player could be successful in. The Type 59 was extremely overpowered but at least it requires a good player. Belfast players are not skilled, they are not respectable, they are not good role models; all they are is a bunch of tryhards that are trash at the game. If War Gaming wants to keep up their current business model, then why don't they just rename them selves EA2. At this rate, by the end of next year, all of the Free Two Play player will leave the game and wallet warriors can stay and fight other pocket warriors. 

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Yes, nerf the shit out of the Belfast. Nerf it hard like the Type 59. I will not allow greedy wallet warriors to govern the ways that the game is played and War Gaming should immediately nerf the Belfast. I've never seen War Gaming release such overpowered vehicles. I have no idea what the hell War Gaming was thinking when they released a tier 7 ship that a tier 4 player could be successful in. The Type 59 was extremely overpowered but at least it requires a good player. Belfast players are not skilled, they are not respectable, they are not good role models; all they are is a bunch of tryhards that are trash at the game. If War Gaming wants to keep up their current business model, then why don't they just rename them selves EA2. At this rate, by the end of next year, all of the Free Two Play player will leave the game and wallet warriors can stay and fight other pocket warriors. 

Never actually played a British cruiser, confirmed.

The British cruiser line is, and has always been since released, a line requiring considerable amount of experience, and Belfast is no difference.

Two friends of mine already regret buying and sold Belfast for being too hard to play.

I'm sure this is probably the most salty and unreasonable salt I've ever seen, am I in NA forum or something?

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Yes, nerf the shit out of the Belfast. Nerf it hard like the Type 59. I will not allow greedy wallet warriors to govern the ways that the game is played and War Gaming should immediately nerf the Belfast. I've never seen War Gaming release such overpowered vehicles. I have no idea what the hell War Gaming was thinking when they released a tier 7 ship that a tier 4 player could be successful in. The Type 59 was extremely overpowered but at least it requires a good player. Belfast players are not skilled, they are not respectable, they are not good role models; all they are is a bunch of tryhards that are trash at the game. If War Gaming wants to keep up their current business model, then why don't they just rename them selves EA2. At this rate, by the end of next year, all of the Free Two Play player will leave the game and wallet warriors can stay and fight other pocket warriors. 

 

No offense but aren't you one of those?

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No offense but aren't you one of those?

 

Asking about advantages that USN BBs have over other nation because statistically they are doing worse is unacceptable ? If you don't like my threads then don't read them ?

Yes, I am one of those people that likes playing games that have proper balancing, and when a whole most ship line is under performing compared to their peers, I will ask why.

My view point is shared with other players. In fact, there are very detailed write ups about these issues for high tier USN BBs. 

E.g

In fact, War Gaming also recognise the issue and this leads them to buffing the Iowa and Montana armour in 0.6.4. Whilst it may not sounds like much. It will be a huge improvement to the Iowa and Montana. You yourself know this. 

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Sure.... asking questions is fine.

 

Forcing your opinions... is not (at least that's what I get from that thread).

 

Point is, just don't complain players being tryhards while yourself being also one of them.

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Never actually played a British cruiser, confirmed.

The British cruiser line is, and has always been since released, a line requiring considerable amount of experience, and Belfast is no difference.

Two friends of mine already regret buying and sold Belfast for being too hard to play.

I'm sure this is probably the most salty and unreasonable salt I've ever seen, am I in NA forum or something?

 

Two friends of your friends regret buying and selling Belfast for being to hard to play ?

LOL. Then tell them to get good. 

How do you know that the British Cruiser line requires a lot of skills. Because ships that requires a lot of skills tend to be under performing compared to their peers. Just like the Iowa, NC and Montana. Skilled players do extremely well this those ships. However, their stats compared to their peers are poor. Have a look at NC, icy_phoenix loves it, Drakon proably enjoys it as well, Flamu loves the NC.

From tier 6-10 british cruisers aren't the bottom at the leader board when it comes to stats so they are, by no means, skillful, that title used belongs to the USN line, things may change in this patch, but I doubt it. 

Now back to the Belfast. 

Why does she have such a low detection range and get access to tier 8 upgrades ?

Why does she have radar, very good smoke and hydro whilst no other tier 7 ship get them ?

Why is she almost impossible to deal with whilst she's in smoke, torpedo is an option but with teamwork, torpedoes threats are irrelevant. The best way to kill her is with RADAR. There are only 2 other ships with RADAR but they are so underwhelming compared to the Belfast. 

Why does the Belfast have such a high planes kills/ game tally compared to the other tier 7 CA. She's doesn't even have AA. Imagine how broken she would be with DFAA

 

Why does the Belfast have the best

WR

XP/GAME

K/D

AVERAGE KILLS

SURVIVAL RATE

AND MAIN BATTERY RATE 

out of any tier 7 CA/CL

HER W/R IS MILES AHEAD OF ANY OTHER SHIPS, INCLUDING PREMIUM SHIPS

Don't even bring fragility up as an excuse because there's a ship called the Pensacola at tier 7. Oh don't forget the Yorck as well, oh don't forget the Fiji as well

Not overpowered ?

You all be the judge

Edited by silenthunter19944

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