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Moggytwo

A balanced fix for stealth firing

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I have a suggestion to improve the stealth fire and gun bloom mechanics in the game.  WG has stated that they don't like stealth fire and would like to remove it.  However in game it is all over the place, some ships have great stealth fire capability, while the German DD's in particular have debilitating gun bloom given the ships they have to fight don't suffer from this.

 

Firstly, as someone who primarily plays DD's I think that stealth firing is not a strong mechanic.  If you are sitting back stealth firing, you're not doing much dpm, there is generally something you can be doing that is better for the team.  It is useful late game if you are on low health though.  What it is strong at is causing saltiness.  Being shot at (even when not actually taking much damage) while not being able to shoot back seems to cause players to get very upset.  I remember once being abused more and more vociferously by a Hipper captain on Two Brothers as I fought a rearguard action in my Blys in a 2v6 scenario trying to delay the enemy so the strong flank could win the other side of the map.  I succeeded enough that we won, but I only did 20k damage in 6 mins to this Hipper who actually survived.  Yet the Hipper captain seemed extremely upset, as did others on the opposing team. This is a common occurrence with stealth firing.

 

Given the relative lack of effectiveness of the mechanic, and the negativity it creates, I have no problem with its nerfing or removal.  It has to be fair though. The current implementation in game where some ships have randomly massive blooms while others have superb stealth fire is not fair.

 

You could make gun bloom equal gun range, a solution I have heard proposed regularly.  The issue with this is that you are effectively nerfing yourself by extending your gun range.  Say you take AFT in your DD - suddenly your gun bloom is massive.  Not a great solution.

 

Currently gun bloom is a simple equation: gun bloom (m) = calibre (mm) x 30.  So for a standard 127mm destroyer gun, gun bloom = 127 x 30 = 3810m.  For Russian DD's, the multiplier is 45, and for German DD's it is 57 (?!).  The problem is, some guns are much easier to hit with at range than others.  So you get some ships that because of their great arcs or superb concealment (or both) become very effective stealth fire ships.

 

My suggestion is to have gun bloom be a function of calibre and muzzle velocity.  So the formula would be muzzle velocity (m/s) divided by 20 then multiplied by the calibre (mm) equals gun bloom (m), or (MV/20)*Calibre = GB.

 

Here's an example. The Kiev uses 130mm guns with a velocity of 870m/s.  So 870/20*130 = 5655m. Basically the same as the current 5850m.  But for a Udaloi with it's better gun arcs, it would be 900/20*130 = 5850m, exactly the same as it is now. So nothing would change.

 

Let's take some of the most effective stealth fire ships. Firstly, the Blyska. It would be 900/20*120 = 5400m, compared to it's current 3600m, giving it (with full concealment) a stealth fire range of 12.2km.  This is much more balanced than the current 10.4km.  How about the Zao; it would be 920/20*203 = 9338, rather than the current 6090m.  This would make the ship unable to stealth fire.  Lastly let us look at the Akizuki; it would be 1000/20*100 = 5000m, rather than the current 3000m, making the stealth fire range 11.0km rather than the current 9.0km.

 

So this is a general nerf to most ships, but that is the idea, since WG have said they want to nerf it.  It leaves Russian DD's effectively unchanged, and is a buff to the absurd bloom on German DD's (830/20*128=5.3km, compared to the current 7.3km).

 

I believe this change to gun bloom calculation would completely fix the stealth fire issues in the game, and provide a level of balance to gun bloom that is currently non-existent.

 

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[LNA]
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Your idea is very fine with some refinement as a single rule for all ships seem not to work.

The problem with stealth firing is mainly a cruiser thing as they have the caliber need to abuse it. DD peppering other ship do less damage and takes a fairly long time to accomplish useful damage and their range is limited

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I like the idea. But....

 

I think the characteristics of different ships makes this game more interesting. Could this balance things out a little too much?

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do you mean nerf Zao again?

Zao stealth from 15.8km to 20.6km without detected

 

Well, WG could bring back her 50k hp pool and i dont know maybe her original rof too? to compensate the detect nerf?

Edited by RisaFujiyama

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do you mean nerf Zao again?

Zao stealth from 15.8km to 20.6km without detected

 

It's not just about Zao, any ship that benefits from invisifring will get affected by it...:smart_fish:

And from what I've seen in T8 MM, that IMO, Zao already performs pretty well(Don't know about T9-10 matches,haven't played any)

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It's not just about Zao, any ship that benefits from invisifring will get affected by it...:smart_fish:

And from what I've seen in T8 MM, that IMO, Zao already performs pretty well(Don't know about T9-10 matches,haven't played any)

Zao is the mother of back stabbing , it is the only tier 10 cruiser that is not really gimped in anyone area and can generally do it all.

Every other cruisers have some kind of specialization to go with it , making them rather inflexible.

Players are very salty and upset with it stealth napalm thrower guns however as it will do both painful damage and unrepairable fires if it can kite you.

 

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Zao is the mother of back stabbing , it is the only tier 10 cruiser that is not really gimped in anyone area and can generally do it all.

Every other cruisers have some kind of specialization to go with it , making them rather inflexible.

Players are very salty and upset with it stealth napalm thrower guns however as it will do both painful damage and unrepairable fires if it can kite you.

 

That's why I said it performs well... it can also bounce shells pretty reliably and is hard to cit if angled. I usually avoid them when I'm in my NC or Bismarck.If disturbed,it can rain hell. :ohmy:

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If WG wants to remove invisible firing, then why arent they doing anything with the current smoke meta, which is equally annoying?

 

Whats wrong with smoking good :v , smoke is not OP if not abused by division. If you dont like it then steer clear of it behind an island.

Smoke right now is the only offensive tool that makes the die hard camper push as they get to invis fire from them

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If WG wants to remove invisible firing, then why arent they doing anything with the current smoke meta, which is equally annoying?

I was gonna say that...IMO, Invisifiring from smoke does need some sort of penalty:hmm:

It should be either related to ballistic performance or visibility.

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Yeah smoke is getting out of hand especially in ranked. The maps are already small and the plague of Belfasts make it worse. And if you were unlucky enough to not have any radar on your team, well gg wp

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Your idea is very fine with some refinement as a single rule for all ships seem not to work.

The problem with stealth firing is mainly a cruiser thing as they have the caliber need to abuse it. DD peppering other ship do less damage and takes a fairly long time to accomplish useful damage and their range is limited

 

Until that DD causes 2-4 fires on that said peppered ship and the HP starts melting off of it.

 

Well, WG could bring back her 50k hp pool and i dont know maybe her original rof too? to compensate the detect nerf?

 

The detection change wouldn't be a nerf as much as a balance, wouldn't be a need to raise any other stat on that ship.

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I found a good idea on NA/EU the idea is making all ship's stealth penalty the same as their maximum firing range(same with AFT/Range mod) but they will also reduce the bloom time(currently 20s). Let's say 127mm gun DD will have 4s bloom time, and 203mm cruiser will have 8-10s. I forgot the formula that he suggested.

 

I know some ship need some sort of stealth fire to deal with certain situations. And with this method they can still do it(with some careful planning, rather than just mindlessly spamming HE from stealth), while allowing the receiving end do some retaliation.

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Zao don't need a nerf as long as the majority of her players are playing IJN fanboy style. Sniping at long range, pewpew battleships, cares only about damage, can't win battles and get super panic whenever detected.
It doesn't get a significantly higher average damage (Moskva leads, Hindenberg and Minotaur* is a bit lower than Zao, DM falls behind much), or a significantly higher average WR(generally balanced, Hindenberg needs a bit of love).

So the RoF buff for DM is to fix her lower average damage, but in a different way. Unlike Zao which needs to survive and turn battle time into damage, devs expect DM to do large amount of damage in a short time before sinking.

*overall Minotaur's average damage is close to Hindenberg, but two week stats Minotaur's average is closer to DM but slightly higher.

Edited by _Halcyon

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The detection change wouldn't be a nerf as much as a balance, wouldn't be a need to raise any other stat on that ship.

 

Well, I expect everyone will gunning at Zao right from start since it cant stealth-fire.

 

playing IJN fanboy style. Sniping at long range, pewpew battleships, cares only about damage, can't win battles and get super panic whenever detected.

 

Hmm... apparently i play the ijn the wrong way.

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[KGHSF]
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If you cannot change them.... Why not Join them? That was what I did...

 

Because they ain't help me anyway they use for their own while I am struggle and nowhere to go 

I admit it my effort all futile

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