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ArmoredMedic

I'm starting to see why this game isn't as popular as WoT

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I've tried very hard to like this game as it is a very well made game, far better than War Thunder and even WoT.

 

But after a week I've come to realize why it's not as popular as the tank games: it's pure rock-paper-scissors, and the player has very little agency or independence due to the over-reliance on teamwork.

 

I've only played the BBs so far (I have no interest in playing another class, I'm not all too into ships to begin with) but it's clear to me that engagements have predetermined outcomes. If I catch a CV in the open, he's 100% dead. If a CV catches me out with his torpedo bombers, I am 100% dead. And who catches whom out is determined by the movement of the team, a BB can never survive any distance away from the herd.

 

In other words, I feel no sense of agency in this game.

The only times when I feel like I'm in control is when I get to fight other BB or CA on an equal footing without a massive disparity in numbers either way.

 

Apologies if this seems like a rant. I'm not saying this is a bad game, just that it doesn't allow solo players (in BB at least) to feel like they're in control of their fate.

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There's also the fact that the WoT community has had something like 6 years to grow whilst WoWS is still barely over a year old...

 

Very true, very true.

And I think WoWS will continue to grow. It's more slow paced than WoT and the community is far less toxic (at least for now).

But the reliance on a RPS system makes the player feel helpless when they're on the receiving end of it, which is not what people play games to feel (unless we're talking about survival horror games).

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it's pure rock-paper-scissors, and the player has very little agency or independence due to the over-reliance on teamwork.

 

I've only played the BBs so far (I have no interest in playing another class, I'm not all too into ships to begin with) but it's clear to me that engagements have predetermined outcomes. If I catch a CV in the open, he's 100% dead. If a CV catches me out with his torpedo bombers, I am 100% dead. And who catches whom out is determined by the movement of the team, a BB can never survive any distance away from the herd.

 

rant is fine btw, but this is not really true. it depend on what kind is the sheep (not the class), a Kriegsmarine BB IS OP as they can counter most of sheep...

 

high AA againts CV

frightening secondary armament againts DD (hoooowwwllll)

expert in close quarter battle...... hard to get citadeled with tortoise wing :V

but its main battery dispersion is really bad..... its a brawler BB!

 

IJN BB...... they are well known for being sniper.... and USN.....  welll... dunno about it.

 

maybe there is still paper rock sccissor in DD, CA, and BB but it wasnt as you thought. the important thing is the MATCHMAKING!

___________

 

and CV is really different from other CV can rekt any sheep..... the best counter againts CV is CV itself

 

_______________________

 

as BB player you need to stay close to allied CA with AA to prevent bombing by CV......

 

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[KGHSF]
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This is really very first year you know

You said that wows weren't popular is not normally? :hmm:

I guess not 

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Super Tester
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If I catch a CV in the open, he's 100% dead.

 

If it's a BB at mid to close range without any cover nearby, then yeah, the CV is pretty much deded, buuut...

 

If a CV catches me out with his torpedo bombers, I am 100% dead. And who catches whom out is determined by the movement of the team, a BB can never survive any distance away from the herd.

 

CVs at all tiers can be deadly, they're certainly a high threat, just like a crispy burning flamethrower CA or torpedo swinging silent running DD, buuuut...

 

 


 

If I dare give some advice:

I have no interest in playing another class

 

That's the equivalent of saying "I have no interest of using guns other than assault rifles" in an fps,

and then going ahead and stating that the outcome of engagements is pre-determined when you run into

an open field with a sniper at 800m or rush into a building and get blasted away by SMGs and shotguns.

 

Instead of moving behind the sniper on an alternative path or doing the good old prone jump to make a shotgun

wielding player miss his first shot.

 

Wait... why am I even writing all this down when... Link

Edited by Retia

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If it's a BB at mid to close range without any cover nearby, then yeah, the CV is pretty much deded, buuut...

 

 

CVs at all tiers can be deadly, they're certainly a high threat, just like a crispy burning flamethrower CA or torpedo swinging silent running DD, buuuut...

 

 


 

If I dare give some advice:

 

That's the equivalent of saying "I have no interest of using guns other than assault rifles" in an fps,

and then going ahead and stating that the outcome of engagements is pre-determined when you run into

an open field with a sniper at 800m or rush into a building and get blasted away by SMGs and shotguns.

 

Instead of moving behind the sniper on an alternative path or doing the good old prone jump to make a shotgun

wielding player miss his first shot.

 

Wait... why am I even writing all this down when... Link

 

Yeah, of course 100% is an exaggeration, but you have to admit it's close.

The point I'm trying to make here is that both scenarios deliver a sense of total helplessness to the player on the receiving side.

 

And it's not just between a BB and a CV. The Rock Paper Scissor mechanic prevails through all the classes.

  • BB sealclub cruisers
  • DD sealclub (ninja torp) BB
  • Cruisers sealclub DD
  • CV sealclub everything at range
  • Everything sealclub CV up close

I realize it's not 100% like this, but I think we can generally agree this is the core meta.

 

This is what I mean when I say the player has no agency. If he's forced into an engagement with the rock to his scissor, he's completely, and if he's in the slower ship, he can't even run away.

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Super Tester
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Yeah no, I completely disagree with that.

 

Am I about to get screwed hard if a destroyer I wasn't aware of comes around and island and blasts my battleship to the moon?

Sure, but why were my guns trained in on the wrong side and why wasn't I aware of a destroyer being near?

Or better to say, why did I believe this area of the map to be save enough to stumble into such a situation?

 

Simple answer is, because I didn't pay enough attention.

Either because the DD was spotted before, however I failed to notice it's heading on the minimap,

or because I got overconfident and didn't realise I'm entering unspotted territory.

 

If I sail my BB into the unknown, not even turning my guns to prepare for it, then I deserved that torpedo face lifting.

 

Point in case:

Here's me fighting a Kongou with my Wyoming when an enemy DD appears on the minimap, obviously in torpedo range.

Instantly switching targets, blaming it twice and reducing it's health to ~10% together with the cruiser.

He scored 1 torpedo hit total on me and continued to attempt long range salvoes since he couldn't get close anymore with a mere 10% health.

 

And it's also why this Benson just lost a whooping 9k health and sunk ~15 seconds later when my two rear turrets had reloaded.

 

BB sealclub cruisers

 

How exactly do they do that?

Cruisers have the maneuverability to dodge most incoming fire, in fact with Priority Target being added there's no more excuse

for any cruiser player to be hit more often than not.

 

And even before that, what's so difficult to understand how a BB player aims and how the shots fly and land?

Of course that requires having played BBs and nobody can dodge every shot fired ever, or perhaps I'm

just talking of madness... or...

 

 

Cruisers sealclub DD

 

In a straight gun duel?

Sure, unless it's a Gremy feasting upon a tier IV or V cruiser.

Actually, that's something most RU DDs can easily do, have a decent gun duel with (other) cruisers.

 

In a long range gun duel?

I wouldn't bet on it.

 

RU and US DDs can easily whittle down a cruiser's hitpoints.

Even some of the JP DDs can, it's just more difficult to find the motivation to put points into AFT these days.

The germans... I dunno, haven't played them yet, should have an okay time or atleast be able to launch a torpedo volley

to slow the cruiser down.

 

CV sealclub everything at range

 

I think I rested my case on this in my last post, but just in case that it wasn't enough yet:

Link

Link

 

Now don't get me wrong, facing a good CV player at any tier means that a BB is very likely to atleast take one if not two torpedo hits,

but that's not game changing damage, 3-4 torpedoes, now that has a bit of an influence because it turns the player into a side actor that

has to focus of staying in the picture rather than pushing others over the edge.

 

However, low and mid tier planes are awefully slow, if someone keeps an eye on the minimap they'll be warned way ahead of time.

Here's the Wyoming from before, a few minutes earlier in the same battle.

Notice how I spotted the aircrafts, but couldn't turn away from them due to the cruiser and yet still didn't take enough damage to make

me break away from the frontline.

 

And again, this is all stuff one will only ever fully understand once they actually put a few battles into another class.

How bombers approach, what the CV player aims for, differences between cross, T and one side drops, etc., it's all

things nobody can learn completely from watching other players or reading guides.

 

Playing a CV will make you understand what ticks them off to the point where 9 out of 10 CV players will just switch targets

before they lose too many planes or too much time.

And the remaining CV player is either desperate to get you anyway or one of the better ones out there.

 


 

Do take note that a basic rock-paper-scissors frame is at work here, but it's not even remotely as deciding as some people think.

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Warships cater to a specific niche of enthusiasts.  Its easier to play tanks because the physics involved are pretty much like playing any first person game.  But warships are slow and lumbering, and they take time to respond due to the Physics of the world we live in.

 

This alone, will not appeal to everyone.  

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ArmoredMedic, before you throw in the towel, how about re-considering trying another ship class? 

 

If you value agency, maybe BBs are not the ideal class for you.  They have the slowest speed, the slowest turret rotation, and the slowest rate of fire.  Relative to the other classes, they are the least able to react to changing circumstances or take advantage of sudden opportunities. 

 

Maybe you would better enjoy the smaller, faster, more flexible ships?  There is a lot of variety among the cruisers and DDs, maybe you can find some ships that are more suitable for your playing style.  Good luck, and hope to see you on the high seas.  :)

 


 

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Super Tester
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So, there is a rock paper scissor mechanic in this game?

So far after about 4000 games the only thing I can say is that Cruisers with DFAA hard counter CVs, and Gunboat DDs counter pretty much everything.  

Battleships do not club Cruisers, it may be the case at lower tiers where people's WASD hacks are not yet developed, but the truth is at higher tiers BBs (after T8) become less maneuverable while CAs stay equally maneuverable, and  CAs also gain range (many people take the range mod).  This means that BB influence in the game is harder to achieve, you would need skillful use of cover, decent coordination with your team (which is a problem if you play solo) and most importantly enemies who make mistakes.  I strongly suggest playing other classes.  BBs have the lowest skill floor, but also lowest skill ceiling.  In randoms they are second to DDs in terms of carrying games through their presence, but of course due to RNG and such your mileage may vary, even under the exact same situations.

The rock paper scissors mechanic do not hold for all classes, those are just rule of thumb.  It is really hard to torp a BB who knows how to position and maneuvre, and really hard to hit Cruisers who know how to maneuvre.  Likewise, some DDs (RU, USN) are difficult to hit (try hitting a T7+ RU DD at 12km and you will see why).  CVs still have decent influence in the match, but of course they are also countered by DFAA.  Overall, each ship line has its own strength and weaknesses, and rock-paper-scissors is just but a rough guideline.

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When you have taste a match with div works together, there you will feel the game so much fun. but if yoou often play solo then your Fun will depend on your teammates which is a mostlikely will be a bad teammates

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So, there is a rock paper scissor mechanic in this game?

 

So far after about 4000 games the only thing I can say is that Cruisers with DFAA hard counter CVs, and Gunboat DDs counter pretty much everything.  

Battleships do not club Cruisers, it may be the case at lower tiers where people's WASD hacks are not yet developed, but the truth is at higher tiers BBs (after T8) become less maneuverable while CAs stay equally maneuverable, and  CAs also gain range (many people take the range mod).  This means that BB influence in the game is harder to achieve, you would need skillful use of cover, decent coordination with your team (which is a problem if you play solo) and most importantly enemies who make mistakes.  I strongly suggest playing other classes.  BBs have the lowest skill floor, but also lowest skill ceiling.  In randoms they are second to DDs in terms of carrying games through their presence, but of course due to RNG and such your mileage may vary, even under the exact same situations.

 

The rock paper scissors mechanic do not hold for all classes, those are just rule of thumb.  It is really hard to torp a BB who knows how to position and maneuvre, and really hard to hit Cruisers who know how to maneuvre.  Likewise, some DDs (RU, USN) are difficult to hit (try hitting a T7+ RU DD at 12km and you will see why).  CVs still have decent influence in the match, but of course they are also countered by DFAA.  Overall, each ship line has its own strength and weaknesses, and rock-paper-scissors is just but a rough guideline.

 

technically yes the game is built around

 

                 CV

 

BB  >> CA >> DD >> BB

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Appreciate the responses.

 

And yes, I agree that BB class has the least amount of agency. A CV has the most.

 

But if I wanted to play an RTS, I'd play an RTS. 

As for DD and CA... not interested cause I just don't really find them all that cool tbh. It just doesn't have that wow factor for me.

 

Playing in a division would definitely improve things for sure, but I don't like to rely on others.

That's the beauty of tank games, your performance isn't super dependent on teammate performance. If you're overextended, you can kempbush, if you're ambushed, you can angle armor, if you're being shot by ninja tank, you can take cover.

You will never be stuck in a position of 100% helplessness, like you are if you're a BB and there's a IJN DD nearby who knows what he's doing. Unless you have a plane or an ally, you will die, no way to hide, no way to run.

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Appreciate the responses.

 

And yes, I agree that BB class has the least amount of agency. A CV has the most.

 

But if I wanted to play an RTS, I'd play an RTS. 

As for DD and CA... not interested cause I just don't really find them all that cool tbh. It just doesn't have that wow factor for me.

 

Playing in a division would definitely improve things for sure, but I don't like to rely on others.

That's the beauty of tank games, your performance isn't super dependent on teammate performance. If you're overextended, you can kempbush, if you're ambushed, you can angle armor, if you're being shot by ninja tank, you can take cover.

You will never be stuck in a position of 100% helplessness, like you are if you're a BB and there's a IJN DD nearby who knows what he's doing. Unless you have a plane or an ally, you will die, no way to hide, no way to run.

 

Unless you pull a USS Harder. Turn the tables on your hunter. Pre-aim your guns, wait for them to come in for the kill, then blast away where even overpens will absolutely shred their HP down. The beauty of warships is that even what's supposed to be your natural prey can have enough tricks and firepower up their sleeve to completely turn the tables around.

 

Kind of a bit like this:

 

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Unless you pull a USS Harder. Turn the tables on your hunter. Pre-aim your guns, wait for them to come in for the kill, then blast away where even overpens will absolutely shred their HP down. The beauty of warships is that even what's supposed to be your natural prey can have enough tricks and firepower up their sleeve to completely turn the tables around.

 

Kind of a bit like this:

 

 

You're using an exception to illustrate a general rule.

Yes, I can Eurobeat my way out of some impossible spreads too, anticipate the attack, hard rudder, kill the throttle.

But in general BB are supposed to get hit by torpedoes fired at them, it's the price of their heavy armor and guns, they don't have the speed to dodge.

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if you have a coordinate attack where your DD teammates help you spoted the torps, or even a plane, you caan dodge it.

 

 

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As for DD and CA... not interested cause I just don't really find them all that cool tbh. It just doesn't have that wow factor for me.

Well, if you want a wow factor in your CA or DD. Read some historical events. Especially taffy 3 vs ijn center force. That naval engagement made me love gunboat dds a lot.

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You're using an exception to illustrate a general rule.

Yes, I can Eurobeat my way out of some impossible spreads too, anticipate the attack, hard rudder, kill the throttle.

But in general BB are supposed to get hit by torpedoes fired at them, it's the price of their heavy armor and guns, they don't have the speed to dodge.

 

Battleships generally pack a formidable torpedo belt - as long as you're reasonably alert, they can absorb single torpedo hits on the belt while turning to avoid the rest of the spread. And lower tier battleships are surprisingly agile - what battleships lack is responsiveness (due to their slow rudder shift). Which means you really need to have major situational awareness and already be turning to evade the moment you become aware of a destroyer in the area. And by that, I don't mean seeing it pop up on the minimap. I mean figuring out the known destroyer hotspots and locations where they love to go (it's basically very easy to tell), what destroyers are on the other team, what torpedo ranges they have and their reload (and crucially, whether they can stealth-torp). Battleship play is pretty cerebral - every single action you take (from deciding where to point your guns, where/when to turn, how fast to go, when to fire, when not to fire) has a consequence, and these consequences are not immediate. The effects will only manifest minutes after you've (consciously or unconsciously) made a decision. Proceed blindly without carefully tracking enemy destroyers? Minutes later, you're sinking from a swarm of torpedoes that you could've avoided if you were more cautious earlier. Pre-aim your guns at the right spot when you know the destroyer isn't elsewhere based off your team's detection circles, and you might be rewarded with being able to surprised a DD by turning the hunt back onto him.

 

In all seriousness, you have less than a hundred battles, and all of which are in battleships so far. Play a destroyer, play a cruiser, figure out how they work, and your battleship game will improve. If you have absolutely no interest in learning how the other ship classes function, it's basically like playing a heavy tank and wondering how the hell you're getting blown up by a smaller, lighter tanks despite MUH ARMOUR.

 

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Super Tester
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Gunboat DDs (USN specially) are by far one of the best and most potential lines in the game. Yes you said they don't appeal you, but it is a game, and you never know that you might grow liking for something new once you try them.

 

The rock-paper-scissor (as shown by DMW avove) is just a hint on how the ships are supposed to perform in 1v1 engagement in a fair fight which will never happen in a game. In fact, you should never engage in a fair fight. And regardless of whether you like it or not, like any other MOBA, you have to play them to know their weakness. Player skill and awareness can alter all the rock paper scissor meta and you have to do it as a team.

 

 

And it's not just between a BB and a CV. The Rock Paper Scissor mechanic prevails through all the classes.

  • BB sealclub cruisers
  • DD sealclub (ninja torp) BB
  • Cruisers sealclub DD
  • CV sealclub everything at range
  • Everything sealclub CV up close

I realize it's not 100% like this, but I think we can generally agree this is the core meta.

 

There are a lot of contributing factor now (sealclubbing is a term that is not applicable here). No more simple like that. And it is about winning the battle. Once you go higher tier, you will see that there are destroyers who go toe-to-toe with cruisers and battleships in gun fight, like Kiev, Udaloi, Khaba, and there are cruisers who are as tough as battleships. A Zao can bounce Yamato shells, when a Moskva goes bow in, nothing will want to pen her. There are CVs who can drop on pretty much everything they want and the battleships with good aim one shot DDs with AP salvos.

 

In all seriousness, you have less than a hundred battles, and all of which are in battleships so far. Play a destroyer, play a cruiser, figure out how they work, and your battleship game will improve. If you have absolutely no interest in learning how the other ship classes function, it's basically like playing a heavy tank and wondering how the hell you're getting blown up by a smaller, lighter tanks despite MUH ARMOUR.

 

And this ^^. 

In all seriousness, mentioning your number of played games isn't stat bashing regardless of what AJ says on your other thread. Like Syanda, I also told you to play more. This is too early to make opinions (yes you can have your opinion, but they will only stay your's and no one will take you seriously). You will laugh at your own posts when you look back at them once you have crossed 1000 battles.

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I don't have the patience to read all of the comments written above but what I understand(and this is just my observation) that, OP just needs to PLAY MORE GAMES:smart_fish:

If your stats are presented correctly, you have played a total of <100 games in random. It is far too low to make a judgment. I mean, don't get upset so early,:)you still have A LOT TO SEE AND LEARN. I'm not criticizing you in any way, just to say that I'm a BB main like you and I've played like 1000+ games in BBs, specially German BBs and that, you will need a lot more games to get hold of the situation....trust me, I didn't even know that citadel hits are indicated with a separate ribbon until a shell from my Bayern accidentally hit the right spot of an enemy ship ! :teethhappy:

 

So, don't rush, just keep playing until you at least get to Gneisenau.Your opinion will change,you'll see...:great:And always play to learn, don't get frustrated.And if possible, play other classes, at least cruisers, so that you can understand that other classes are not as easy to play as you may be thinking.

 

P.S.Don't even bother to play the Tirpitz you have,it will take a lot more skill to play t8 than you may be thinking...

 

Hope this helps. :honoring:

 

Edited by _TAMAL_

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