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Admiral_Turing

Nerf the Kutuzov

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The Kutuzov has always been a strong ship, it rules all t8 cruiser for a long time alongside Atago, already proven in last season ranked.

 

Now since the introduction of IFHE, the Kutuzov become ridiculously stronger, now it begins to lift off to a space where the Nikolai, Gremy, and Fujin lives. It even begins to leave the Atago on the ground. since the 1 big weakness of the Kutuzov(low HE penetration) is now gone. which also means the one big advantage Atago has over the Kutuzov is also gone now. 

 

Here's Kutuzov's last 2 week stats

2eywd1x.pngKutuzov leads in

-Damage(12K more than 2nd place Chapayev)

-K/D ratio (only rivaled by the low sample size Edinburgh)

-Ship kills 

-Plane kills

Kutuzov also come only 2nd in win rate, and survavibility.

 

Compare the Kutuzov to its nearest tech tree equivalent (Chapayev) and you can see the Kutuzov is superior in a lot of aspects

 

-Survivability wise, they has similiar armor layout. but the Kutuzov has more HP for some odd reason

-The armament, similiar guns, but the Kutuzov has almost 2km more range, FOR SOME WEIRD REASON, please explain to me why Kutuzov has 19km range? why? Chapayev is doing fine with 17km, why the Kutuzov has 2km more? Kutuzov also somehow has Donskoi torps, while its situational, its still more useful than Chapayev.

-AA. Kutuzov has way better AA than Chapayev. again for some weird reason

-Maneuverability. Now this part really piss me off. Kutuzov and Chapayev has similiar speed, BUT the Kutuzov has 760m turning radius, 6,5s rudder shift compared to Chapayev 890m,9,7s rudder shift. WHY? WHAT FOR? I know Chapayev is a really strong HE spammer, which is why i presumed WG give this BB like turning radius as balancing reason. Now why in the bloody world the Kutuzov, which is an even stronger HE spammer than the Chapayev has better maneuverability? its suppose to has worse. and not to mention the smoke. IT DOESN'T NEED THE SUPERIOR MANEUVERABILITY. PERIOD.

-Concealment. Finally, Chapayev has something superior. Kutuzov has 1km worse concealment than Chapayev......... BUT IT HAS SMOKE, never mind, nothing to see here.

 

Now Chapayev is already performing good and quite well balanced. But the Kutuzov is superior in any way compared to Chapayev, the only thing that makes Chapayev somewhat relevant to the Kutuzov is the stealth fire ability and radar. Now since WG wants to remove stealth fire what advantage Chapayev has over the Kutuzov? Radar alone is not enough. Now im comparing the Kutuzov to the Chapayev, the best performing tech tree cruiser in t8, and its already quite inferior. How about the Mogami? Hipper? NO? they're all performing like a WW1 protected cruiser compared to the Kutuzov.

 

Since the stealth fire will be removed, i predict WG will give heal to all cruiser that can do it, and seriously, the last thing on earth that i want is seeing the Kutuzov given a heal. 

 

What i think will balance the kutuzov

-Give it Chapayev maneuverability

-Keep the maneuverability and remove the smoke, OR give it RNCL like smoke.

 

Now before you all saying WG doesnt nerf premius, i say one thing to you. WG can, and WG should. WG has the right to change premium stuff. they've done it in the past. Since simply not selling OP premiums doesnt solve the problem of the ship still being OP. If WG actually want to make this game balanced, they must decisively change ship stats regardless of whether the ship is premium or not.

 

Ps. They nerfed Bismarck's Hydro, even when a lot of people already bought Bismarck's permanent camo. so i dont see a reason why they shouldn't nerf overperforming premiums.

Ps#2 At least Belfast is ridiculously squishy, and it cant do much without smoke and cover, the Kutuzov doesnt really care about smoke and cover because of the massive range. It's also not squishy. 

 

 

 

 

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WG has a reputation of not nerfing premium ships.

 

EDIT: They don't want people to ask for refund because of nerfs. 

 

EDIT: Bismarck is not a premium ship

Edited by Loshirai14

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Now before you all saying WG doesnt nerf premius, i say one thing to you. WG can, and WG should. WG has the right to change premium stuff. they've done it in the past. Since simply not selling OP premiums doesnt solve the problem of the ship still being OP. If WG actually want to make this game balanced, they must decisively change ship stats regardless of whether the ship is premium or not.

 

Nerfing the T26E4 Super Pershing and then offering refunds to players was such a huge logistical nightmare to Wargaming, that they pretty much gave up with nerfing premium tanks in WoT altogether. Hence why abominations like the E-25 were never nerfed, and were merely removed from sale.

 

The earliest time I remember WG nerfing anything without offering a refund would be the Type 59, but people didn't complain as hard because the tank was still very viable after the nerf.

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Nerfing the T26E4 Super Pershing and then offering refunds to players was such a huge logistical nightmare to Wargaming, that they pretty much gave up with nerfing premium tanks in WoT altogether. Hence why abominations like the E-25 were never nerfed, and were merely removed from sale.

 

The earliest time I remember WG nerfing anything without offering a refund would be the Type 59, but people didn't complain as hard because the tank was still very viable after the nerf.

 

And then they sold the E-25 again over christmas :facepalm:

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Registered March 2016, I see why you have salt with this. You probably aren't aware of the ship's history.

This Mikhail Kutuzov was first release late 2015, although I didn't buy this ship at that time, I do remember what it was like. The base range was ~16km, RoF was slightly lower, and the base turret transverse was quite bad. And as all 0.5.x patches do, 152mm at Tier VIII is quite awkward as your HE can't penetrate even cruiser hull (25-27).

Did I mention that back at that time BFT EM AFT set of skills affect up to 155mm?

A casual skill set for a Mikhail Kutuzov at that time was BFT EM SI AFT CE. So only 12% fire chance, incapable of fighting 1v1 battles against same tier cruisers, stupid concealment even if you do have CE, and at least a 10 skill captain to make it work. Does this sound OP to you? No?

And the Russian tree didn't have a cruiser branch back then, meaning you are forced to either share captain with Russian DD or use a captain dedicated to Mikhail Kutuzov. IIRC the last stand skill was at level 4 that time so a DD skill setup is very different from a MK.

After the BFT EM AFT set was nerfed, MK's RoF, transverse and range was buffed, as the devs considered this ship to be working with that set of skills, the buff was to make the ship perform equally well. But with the change of skills at that time, the captain was allowed to pick some other skills. Most importantly, Demolition Expert. So you don't have to own a 10 skill captain to make it work, and you can enjoy 15% fire chance. At this point the ship was a fairly good HE spammer. It was not OP, as it is too detectable to go up front and support DD like an Atago can do, can only rely on fire to do damage, and can't engage high tier cruisers.

And now here we are, at 2017. Patch 0.6.0 now introduced IFHE, and clearly this removed some serious flaws of MK. You can now confidently engage a T8 cruiser, and do both HE penetration and fire damage at a battleship.

Do you notice something? It was not the ship that becomes OP, it was the captain skill tree that caused a poor little AA cruiser to become the best cruiser firepower of T8.

If you want the devs to reduce MK's performance, nerf IFHE.

Using Bismarck's permanent camo as an example, I don't really see a logical link. What I bought was the camo's stats, -3% concealment +4% dispersion +50% exp -5(later 10)% repair fee. I didn't buy Bismarck's combat stats. But as for the ship, what I paid was the ship's stats not the camo, so Bismarck's camo can't prove nerfing a premium ship directly is OK.

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At first Kutuzov doesn't really has anything special. Even iChase say its mediocre back when it was first relased. 

 

At first Kutuzov is just a normal t8 cruiser with bad concealment and smoke.

It begins it ascend to a borderline OP ship when WG stupidly over compensate Kutuzov range to a ridiculous 19km from the original 15,9km when the global AFT nerf happened(correct me if i'm wrong). 

Here's what MK weakness according to LWM

  • 152mm rifles can struggle to do damage to larger capital ships. (IFHE negate this)
  • Very little armour and a large, exposed citadel (All cruiser except german suffer from this)(Also smoke/long range somewhat negate this)
  • Has no torpedo bulges -- expect to take full damage from any torpedo strikes. (All cruiser suffer from this)
  • Large surface detection range of 14.1km. (Smoke negate this)
  • No float plane spotter, fighter or radar options. (Who need spotter when you have 19,1km permanent range?)

What is MK weakness now?

 

Nerfing IFHE is a good option. The only other option is nerfing its over-compensated range.

Edited by Admiral_Turing

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Talking about nerf... I'd say decrease it's range as it has 19kms which in lot of cases out ranges even BBs... and With the MM most likely ships like New Mexico and Bayern are easy prey for it... I don't mind RoF, Smoke...  Range is just ridiculous for a cruiser...

 

On other things i'd say it is just fine and is not OP as belfast...

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At first Kutuzov doesn't really has anything special. Even iChase say its mediocre back when it was first relased. 

 

At first Kutuzov is just a normal t8 cruiser with bad concealment and smoke.

It begins it ascend to a borderline OP ship when WG stupidly over compensate Kutuzov range to a ridiculous 19km from the original 15,9km when the global AFT nerf happened(correct me if i'm wrong). 

Here's what MK weakness according to LWM

  • 152mm rifles can struggle to do damage to larger capital ships. (IFHE negate this)
  • Very little armour and a large, exposed citadel (All cruiser except german suffer from this)(Also smoke/long range somewhat negate this)
  • Has no torpedo bulges -- expect to take full damage from any torpedo strikes. (All cruiser suffer from this)
  • Large surface detection range of 14.1km. (Smoke negate this)
  • No float plane spotter, fighter or radar options. (Who need spotter when you have 19,1km permanent range?)

What is MK weakness now?

 

Nerfing IFHE is a good option. The only other option is nerfing its over-compensated range.

That's not over compensate range, that's actually main selling point of kutuzov aside from smoke, I don't have kutuzov but I've tried kutuzov and atago in public test before ifhe was a thing, and back then I would gladly chose atago over kutuzov even when kutuzov has longer range than atago, so nerfing IFHE is the only option, or make IFHE has separate bonus like expert marksman

Edited by Teostra

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Compare the Kutuzov to its nearest tech tree equivalent (Chapayev) and you can see the Kutuzov is superior in a lot of aspects

 

-Survivability wise, they has similiar armor layout. but the Kutuzov has more HP for some odd reason

-The armament, similiar guns, but the Kutuzov has almost 2km more range, FOR SOME WEIRD REASON, please explain to me why Kutuzov has 19km range? why? Chapayev is doing fine with 17km, why the Kutuzov has 2km more? Kutuzov also somehow has Donskoi torps, while its situational, its still more useful than Chapayev.

-AA. Kutuzov has way better AA than Chapayev. again for some weird reason

-Maneuverability. Now this part really piss me off. Kutuzov and Chapayev has similiar speed, BUT the Kutuzov has 760m turning radius, 6,5s rudder shift compared to Chapayev 890m,9,7s rudder shift. WHY? WHAT FOR? I know Chapayev is a really strong HE spammer, which is why i presumed WG give this BB like turning radius as balancing reason. Now why in the bloody world the Kutuzov, which is an even stronger HE spammer than the Chapayev has better maneuverability? its suppose to has worse. and not to mention the smoke. IT DOESN'T NEED THE SUPERIOR MANEUVERABILITY. PERIOD.

-Concealment. Finally, Chapayev has something superior. Kutuzov has 1km worse concealment than Chapayev......... BUT IT HAS SMOKE, never mind, nothing to see here.

 

Now Chapayev is already performing good and quite well balanced. But the Kutuzov is superior in any way compared to Chapayev, the only thing that makes Chapayev somewhat relevant to the Kutuzov is the stealth fire ability and radar. Now since WG wants to remove stealth fire what advantage Chapayev has over the Kutuzov? Radar alone is not enough. Now im comparing the Kutuzov to the Chapayev, the best performing tech tree cruiser in t8, and its already quite inferior. How about the Mogami? Hipper? NO? they're all performing like a WW1 protected cruiser compared to the Kutuzov.

I can explain the differences in stats between MK and Chapayev by presenting some historical facts, and probably provide some personal opinion about why the devs do this.

1. HP difference. Mikhail Kutuzov, along with the rest of the Sverdlov (68bis) class, are very large and bulky cruisers. They displace more than the Chapayev (68K) class. 

As the tradition of WoWS, displacement is hooked up with HP, and ther goes MK's better HP.

2. Mikhail Kutuzov was a later design and featured a newer gun mount, the Mark 5 bis mount of the Pattern 1938 guns. Chapayev used the earlier Mark 5 mount.

As I mentioned in an earlier reply, MK's range was buffed by 20% after the nerf to the critical AFT skill. And you probably haven't noticed MK has a significantly larger detection range penalty after firing than Chapayev, making invisifiring impractical.

3. Torps. WG was generous enough to give Chapayev's B hull torps. The 68K removed all torpedo and aviation equipments during the design stage to make the post war armaments able to fit into the pre war hull originally for the original project 68 design(in-game Chapayev A hull).

I don't know, probably to make pushing a smoke more challenging?

4. According to Wikipedia, 68bis introduced a new propeller design which the western navies want to check and led to the Crabb Affair. So probably this is why the superior maneuverability came from.

As I've mentioned, MK can't invisifire effectively due to it's worse detection penalty. After you use up your smoke, MK will face a hard time doing damage, but at the later stage of a game, Chapayev can easily invisifire due to the reduction of surviving ships and especially with the reduction of floating DD.

5. AA, historical fact.

6. Concealment. There's no historical fact as WG set concealment value based on Vodka.

Do you realize Chapayev has a radar range longer than it's detection range? This means anyone who spots you is well within your radar range, this is a unique feature and is absolutely useful. MK's smoke only lasts for ~90 seconds, and you need to slow down before popping it. And MK's acceleration is slow so it's very possible that you get torped when sitting in your smoke and pew pew. (You can pick acceleration and hydro to counter this, but as Chapayev don't need acceleration, it can upgrade rudder shift. And Chapayev can pick DAAF in a anti surface setup while MK has to pick hydro to keep your smoke spam safe)

So as a Kutuzov owner, I'll grind myself a Chapayev and buy a permanent camo for her. Simply because I see some seriously great abilities that MK don't have.

And Mogami, well the Mogami. I assume you choose 203mm? Just try 155mm, that's what Mogami is good at, 203mm setup is inferior to Atago in almost every aspect.

Hipper is UP but WG don't care.

Nrw Orleans is quite stupid but it will enjoy a buff the next patch.

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To be fair, MK was strong before 0.6.0.

 

Aand.... then IFHE came and you get a Zao in T8, with good AA, and smoke, and longer range, and better shells to deal with smolbotes (slightly faster shells).

 

I'd say it is OP now, given how easily it can farm even T10 BBs.  But it is not the ship per se, it is mainly due to IFHE and the ability to deal 100k of raw HE damage in a decent game.

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To be fair, MK was strong before 0.6.0.

 

Aand.... then IFHE came and you get a Zao in T8, with good AA, and smoke, and longer range, and better shells to deal with smolbotes (slightly faster shells).

 

I'd say it is OP now, given how easily it can farm even T10 BBs.  But it is not the ship per se, it is mainly due to IFHE and the ability to deal 100k of raw HE damage in a decent game.

IFHE Mikhail Kutuzov is more than a T8 mini Zao. Having decent turret transverse is a great advantage, and MK's torp, with better angle, can be more useful than Zao's.

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Mik is prob in my top 5 favorite ships before 0.6.0, and now yes i agree with IFHE its a bit much.

 

Just the consistency IFHE has given with damage is amazing, whereas before its was cross fingers and hope for consistent fires. While witherer achievements are a lot less frequent the damage boost from IFHE far out weighs it. Still a tricky ship to play with very poor armor, large citadel and every DD and his dog spamming smoke with torps. Plus when you are spotted everyone knows your squishy and wants to see you gone asap so being focused happens frequently, that was no different pre 0.6.0 tho.

 

Someone mentioned the torps, but to be honest your not in close combat often with the Mik... or shouldn't be anyway. More of a defensive tool if someone decides to rush your smoke.

 

I do feel sorry for the USN BBS now tho, IFHE + Fires they just melt.

 

Belfast could also be added to this thread as being a bit much now with IFHE, probably more so than the Mik with all its tools.

 

Changes to the Mik wont happen.. changes to IFHE are possible tho, perhaps an increase in fire chance reduction closer to its original 6%.

Edited by KillStealz

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Just the consistency IFHE has given with damage is amazing, whereas before its was cross fingers and hope for consistent fires. While witherer achievements are a lot less frequent the damage boost from IFHE far out weighs it. Still a tricky ship to play with very poor armor, large citadel and every DD and his dog spamming smoke with torps. Plus when you are spotted everyone knows your squishy and wants to see you gone asap so being focused happens frequently, that was no different pre 0.6.0 tho.

It's not squishy in normal CA standard. It has normal t8 CA armor, unlike the British which always has worse armor than their counterparts(Fiji/Belfast has 13mm plating instead of the standard 16mm at t7) the Kutuzov doesn't has this. And again it has too many survivability tools that it doesn't need. The superior maneuverability compared to the Chapayev is clearly not needed.

 

What I hate is the fact that the Kutuzov as a premium far outperforms it's tech tree counterpart. Which should never happened. 

 

It's WG's fault the Kutuzov grows into an overpowered premium. The dev doesn't think long term. And now I dare WG to fix this problem. And not selling the Kutuzov again doesn't fix anything. The only way is to nerf it. (Nerf IFHE, or the ship itself) regardless of the consequences. 

 

It's their fault, and they must fix it.

 

Screw all of the complaining crybabies. They don't pay extra money when Kutuzov get the 3km range increase, why would they complain when it's rebalanced?

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Really? Did WoWS devs promised us that premiums don't outperform tech tree counterparts? I think the WoT devs did, but WoT is Wargaming Minsk and WoWS is Wargaming St.Petersburg so they are different devs and different devs do different things.

And why is MK now OP? That range? Let's take T10 battleships for example, Yamato gets a nice 26km base range while GK's base range is just over 20km. But which one is considered OP? And back when we only had Yamato and Montana, why was Yamato OP?

You may argue MK's range over Chapayev isn't that useless, but it's not why MK is OP. The problem is clearly IFHE. No doubt.

Back in 0.5.x, MK was a harvester of BB salt, and can support DD warfare. It could bully lower tier ships better than other same tier cruisers, but no one really cared about those bullied.

How MK grind damage from T8-10 ships during 0.5.x

Shoot DD (HE direct penetration)

Burn BB (fire)

As for cruisers, your HE couldn't penetrate them, so you need to hit the superstructure to get damage. Or you can get fire damage. But cruisers are maneuverable and hitting the superstructure isn't easy. Cruisers also have shorter DamCon CD, meaning that you can't get easy fire damage like how you burn BB, and MK would face a tough fight against same/higher tier cruisers.

But here's how IFHE MK gets damage

DD CA/CL BB, all HE penetration and fire.

Now MK can defeat Atago, the previous king of T8 cruisers, in a head on fight. The only T8 cruiser that stood a chance against Atago in 0.5.x was the 155mm Mogami, having 26mm HE pen and a decent RoF. But IFHE MK can do better. As 155mm Mogami has a really bad angle of fire, a full salvo position can led to a AP lolcitadel situation, Mogami usually use A B C turrets and only use X Y occasionally in a fight against Atago. But MK can bring all turrets into action. And MK don't suffer from the nightmare turret transverse of Mogami, meaning it can keep firing and do evasive maneuvers.

The max fire chance of a IFHE MK is 12%, and max of MK in .16 patch was 16%, you do get a 25% decrease in fire chance, but you can easily bully nearly all ships you see with 33mm pen HE. That means you get both some fire damage and a hell of a lot HE penetration damage.

So undeniably, MK is now OP, but along with other 152-180mm cruisers. IFHE proves to be too OP, instead of a "penetration focused HE spammers' choice", it's now a must pick for 152-180, allowing both HE penetration and fire.

Should be changed to +25% -3%(increase damage against CA/CL but reduce damage against BB) or +30% -6%(give up fire setting for HE penetration damage)

Yes no one paid for the range buff, but giving people stuff for free is great but taking them back don't seem very nice. And keep in mind that there are people who actually bought the ship after the skill change.

And how to balance a OP ship? Take Saipan for example, Saipan used to club Hiryu and Ranger bad, and still club them now but nit all that bad. Why? Usually T7 CV captains don't have AS and won't bother picking dogfighting expert. But now, DFE is a level 1 skill with promising stats, and AS is a 4 points. So now Hiryu and Ranger usually have both AS and DFE, so Saipan isn't so much OP.

And how to counter MK's OP-ness? Nerf IFHE.

Mikhail Kutuzov's OP-ness isn't her unique overperforming, but being shared with other small caliber cruisers.

Screw you complaining crybaby.

Nerf IFHE is the solution, not nerfing some wierd stuff that don't exactly contribute to her OP-ness.

BTW I'll be super happy if you give me Edinburgh smoke instead of the current one, Edinburgh's last far longer and have an extra charge.

And when I was grinding Mogami and Ibuki, I observed and for some wierd reason, all MK I met except only one picked IFHE but many Chapayev don't have IFHE.

Edited by _Halcyon

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MK IFHE club TierXs no pressure..

WG never nerf prems

more like IFHE shouldnt ever exist

 

700-1mil credits, 40k captains xp games. Bring on the uptiering :)

 

Thank you santa for the MK lucky dip.

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The Kutuzov used to be one of the OP ships out there.. But its not really as OP as it seems. It has its weaknesses.... Same with belfast...

 

I dont think WG will nerf this premium. Or any other premium that is. So best stay clear from it or, Like Belfast... Make it a priority target in the beginning of the Match and delete it with focus fire.

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