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Zao becomes even more OP

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Super Tester
458 posts
7,194 battles

After my previous "Zao is OP post" about how taking RoF on Zao makes it a really strong, borderline OP ship, path 0.6.0 came.
And with that came Adrenaline rush.
So I decided that an aggro build would be pretty viable, so I took Rudder mod 3 instead of the usual Concealment mod.  
Guess what, this thing becomes even more OP.

Before: OP botes I.png

After: Zao rudder mod.png

 

Skills: AR, EL, EM, AR, DE, AFT, CE

Modules: Main battery 1 / AA range / RoF / Damecon / Rudder 2 / Rudder 3


Currently it has:

12.1 - 9.7s reload

16.2 - 19.4km range (spotter + DFAA)

10.8s Concealment range
Most importantly ->> 3.7s rudder.

 

Right now this build can troll USN BBs at 12km and dodge all their shells, and troll all other BB types (except maybe Izumo cos 870m/s shell velocity) at 14km.  The 3.7s rudder can even troll CVs.
Wargaming may want to balance CAs in this tier by either buffing the others (like poor Hindenburg) or (recommended) nerfing the Zao.

Of course detractors may claim Zao is not OP, but they are just not playing Zao in the most optimal way.  Why else would the best Zao players have the highest CA win rates in T10?  Only for 3-man divs does DM outwin the Zao (according to warships.today)

How am I going to remove slippery aggro Zao players from the enemy team when I can't hit them?
Why would WG put a T10 ship with literally no weaknesses in the game?
As someone who cares the about the playability of T10 games (since I play T10 quite a bit), I am quite concerned about this troll build.
One does not simply add an "anti-everything" ship into the game, unless it is premium.  This would literally be encouraging players to cheese.

OP botes I.png

Zao rudder mod.png

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Member
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4,335 battles

Statistically, even when player base size is taken in to account, Zao is balanced. You are obviously good at Zao. I have built in the same way & really enjoy it but... it's not OP.

It out performs the other X cruisers because they are UP. Zao's weakness is its lack of party tricks.

It can deal damage and take hits.... but there are 3 tier X ships far far better at both of those things.

 

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Super Tester
458 posts
7,194 battles

Statistically, even when player base size is taken in to account, Zao is balanced. You are obviously good at Zao. I have built in the same way & really enjoy it but... it's not OP.

It out performs the other X cruisers because they are UP. Zao's weakness is its lack of party tricks.

It can deal damage and take hits.... but there are 3 tier X ships far far better at both of those things.

 

True...  Fundamentally it is a strong Tier 10 CA, and the other ships (erhmm Hindenburg) are quite a bit UP.  On the case of the radar ships, DM is excellent when in divisions, as the numerous chinese CV-CA-DM or DD-DD-DM divisions farming T10 have shown.  Moskva is a bit weird.  I think it has great potential, but not many people play it well.  And then Minotaur is just excellent at zoning off areas of the map, due to its smoke.  But of course it could also be countered by skilled players (ie spotter plane blind firing and torping).  Of course BBs can deal far more damage and take far more hits, and so can RU DDs. But the main point here is that Zao can both take hits and avoid them, which is quite broken.  BBs can take hits, DDs can avoid hits.  Having a CA being able to do both kind of makes it broken.

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[LNA]
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The 3.7s rudder can even troll CVs

 

Troll CV , uhm no. 3.7s rudder is nearly the same as a dd. But Zao is a long throbbing rod and turn like a truck so rudder shift do little if CV decide you have to be rekt.

The only thing that save ZAO from death is AA def fire which mess up torp run. Faster turning do not mean alot to 3x torp squad or a well placed 6 torp spread.

Pray do know that 3x torps from a good Taiho will keep even a dd out of the game for good

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Super Tester
458 posts
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Troll CV , uhm no. 3.7s rudder is nearly the same as a dd. But Zao is a long throbbing rod and turn like a truck so rudder shift do little if CV decide you have to be rekt.

The only thing that save ZAO from death is AA def fire which mess up torp run. Faster turning do not mean alot to 3x torp squad or a well placed 6 torp spread.

Pray do know that 3x torps from a good Taiho will keep even a dd out of the game for good

 

That is true, DFAA is still more important in avoiding drops.  Zao does turn like a truck, but the rate it changes the angle of attack is not significantly lower than other ships (except Minotaur cos RNCL turning).  This is also why you div with CV and another CA so you can coordinate your DFAA :trollface:.  Likewise, you also need to hit like 5 IJN torps (~30k) to put a Zao out of action, and many times your stack loses a squadron from DFAA.  It is still possible to drop skilled T10 cruisers, but deleting them outright is a bit hard. 

And regarding DDs, you know the USN have this thing called DFAA, and Russians have this "Y" button they can use to literally outrun torps (plus their speed means setting up a TB run takes longer).  Only IJN suffers from poor cornering speed, meaning that they would usually take 2 TB torpedoes, or if they are lucky one on the bow.  In any case, IJN DDs are screwed with CVs around anyway.

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Troll CV , uhm no. 3.7s rudder is nearly the same as a dd. But Zao is a long throbbing rod and turn like a truck so rudder shift do little if CV decide you have to be rekt.

The only thing that save ZAO from death is AA def fire which mess up torp run. Faster turning do not mean alot to 3x torp squad or a well placed 6 torp spread.

Pray do know that 3x torps from a good Taiho will keep even a dd out of the game for good

Never consider a Zao's AA bad.

My Zao is have the AA range upgrade in the second slot, you know losing a little bit of accuracy won't hurt nobody, and even without any captain AA skill, this ship does fairly well in defending it's own sky if you equip DAAF. (My Zao is a traditional concealment setup)

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Super Tester
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I guess I'll just go for a pity reply. Generally, I have zero respect for clickbait titles, this is on par with Buzzfeed's level of trickery.

 

Why would WG put a T10 ship with literally no weaknesses in the game?

 

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hyperbole

 

Zao has 40,800 HP, which is one high explosive salvo more than the Atago. The stock Roon hull has more hitpoints. Zao also has no button-press crutches like the Des Moines, Minotaur and Moskva. These two are both weaknesses.

 

But hey, maybe I've just grown more cynical and jaded with age, it's the new norm for the younger generation to completely misuse the word "literally".

 

Zao is essentially the Asia server scapegoat. Few people complain about Moskva or Minotaur being OP, it's always the Zao being heavily burned into their minds. Thanks to psychological conditioning from the image of the Zao back in early OBT when only the Des Moines and Zao existed, whenever people think of Zao, they automatically associate it to the words "OP", despite having numerous direct and indirect nerfs imposed on the ship. Moskva does roughly the same amount of damage as the Zao, and has a 2% higher winrate server-wide.

 

Wargaming is not going to buff or nerf ships because one dude keeps posting threads asking for ships to be buffed or nerfed. They make buffs and nerfs based on their own internal data, which they have no obligation to share with you. These threads serve little to no purpose (did you really think being a supertester makes your personal opinion somehow more weighted to the developers? I've got news for you) since they won't affect game balancing one bit. Before you go for the "but I'm facilitating community discussion" route, you've poisoned the well from the very beginning with the original post so it's no longer about "community dialogue".

 

But hey, this entire thread, just like your previous one, is engineered to seek attention.

Edited by benlisquare

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Never consider a Zao's AA bad.

My Zao is have the AA range upgrade in the second slot, you know losing a little bit of accuracy won't hurt nobody, and even without any captain AA skill, this ship does fairly well in defending it's own sky if you equip DAAF. (My Zao is a traditional concealment setup)

 

Never consider a Zao's AA bad.

My Zao is have the AA range upgrade in the second slot, you know losing a little bit of accuracy won't hurt nobody, and even without any captain AA skill, this ship does fairly well in defending it's own sky if you equip DAAF. (My Zao is a traditional concealment setup)

 

Zao AA is bad because you will drop planes only after they drop their payload ( Meaning if the plane dont make more than 1 turn , you are screwed). If i take out around 20k of a Zao HP , i will have put it out of action for 4 minutes and force it to turn to some strange direction while drooling ally right click for easy citadels.

At most Zao will drop 1 plane out of a squad with AA Def fire on before payload is dropped ( unless RNG wills it ) so there you have it. As a CV player , even losing whole squad like that i consider it a good trade , unlike those USN BB.

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Zao AA is bad because you will drop planes only after they drop their payload ( Meaning if the plane dont make more than 1 turn , you are screwed). If i take out around 20k of a Zao HP , i will have put it out of action for 4 minutes and force it to turn to some strange direction while drooling ally right click for easy citadels.

At most Zao will drop 1 plane out of a squad with AA Def fire on before payload is dropped ( unless RNG wills it ) so there you have it. As a CV player , even losing whole squad like that i consider it a good trade , unlike those USN BB.

You probably met Zao with accuracy mod, but mine is AA range so I don't really have a huge problem with airstrike. While airstrike do force Zao to turn and a broadside Zao can be citadelled, a bit of angle will turn most AP shells of 420mm and below bounce-offs, and Zao's citadel is mostly underwater so citadelling it is really hard compared to other T10 cruisers like Moskva or DM.

And after you take 20k off a Zao, there's a magical number, 15.8. Zao isn't a ship that depends on HP to do damage, at above 15.8km range, Zao can invisifire, and at max range(18.8), it only takes ~11 seconds for the shells to land, so invisifiring don't need much prediction and gunnery skill on a Zao.

Take this one instance, one Izumo got two citadels off my Zao during the starting few minutes and I had to play with below 20k HP the rest of the game, but by carefully keeping the range and using repair at the right time, I did survive and won, with a 90k damage. Yes it's only server average, but I did get ~20k off DDs and fought a Zao with more HP than me. Move close in the dark, load AP, get into position, take aim and fire, their Zao didn't even get his turret in position when I managed to take his HP to my level and disappeared again.

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