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Zao is OP

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Super Tester
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It is time we need to have some discussions about the Zao

Here are some points about the Zao, feel free to add in more observations in the replies.

 

-Excellent HE alpha, ~202k HE DPM with 13.1 fires per minute when running RoF mod.  Shell arcs are also excellent

-AP shells are excellent, they are heavy and fast, and have excellent penetration.  Of course, you would not be spamming them but using them situationally against CAs, so alpha is more important than DPM.  64800 AP broadside is no joke, especially with her dispersion.

-Armour Layout: Similar to other T10s, it has 25mm of bow and stern armour and 30mm of upper belt and deck, but.....

The armour geometry is broken af.  The upper deck is flared out for most of the ship (look up in armour viewer).  This allows it to bounce 16 inch shells off its upper belt/deck readily.

-6.1s rudder shift with rudder mod.  This is an extremely agile ship, apart from German BBs and Izumo, you have a lot of time to dodge shells, especially if you are already kiting.

 

While most people fear the 18.8km stealth firing Zaos, they are not the most dangerous, nor the most OP.  The Zao players I fear are those running rudder 2/3 mod, and using RoF mod.  They are literally the most broken ships in the right hands.  Impossible to hit, high fires per minute, troll armour, what else you want to make it more irritating?

Case in point: After I changed from range mod to RoF mod, my average damage increased from ~88k to ~122k

This is not balanced at all.

 

So in conclusion, Zao is very survivable, due to maneuverability and troll armour layout, has excellent fire setting potential, has great AP to slam into CA broadsides.  The torpedoes are cherry on the cake.  You don't even need the torps, and it will still be OP.

 

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Super Tester
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Everyone knows Zao is OP. The only ones who say it isn't OP, are those who play the Zao.

It needs a nerf.

 

 

There is NO counter to the Zao.

 

BBs get burnt and kited.

CAs get burnt and kited. Furthermore, Zao's AP is so heavy it citadels other CAs very easily.

DDs get violated.

CVs cant touch it because it presses a magical button, not only that, but in 6.0, you can get DE + AFT + MAA + CE.

Edited by TE_Deathskyz

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... I thought it's a pretty well established fact; If anything, we should be thinking of how this boat can be balansed in the future IMO. 

 

It needs a nerf.

but how exactly do we achieve that?

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Super Tester
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The citadel portion that extends above the waterline is very short and hard to nail reliably (a large portion is sloped). The flared-out portion of the deck makes the citadel very protected unless the shells plunge a lot or its at short range (you're not going to get THAT very often).

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Super Tester
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It is time we need to have some discussions about the Zao

Here are some points about the Zao, feel free to add in more observations in the replies.

 

-Excellent HE alpha, ~202k HE DPM with 13.1 fires per minute when running RoF mod.  Shell arcs are also excellent

-AP shells are excellent, they are heavy and fast, and have excellent penetration.  Of course, you would not be spamming them but using them situationally against CAs, so alpha is more important than DPM.  64800 AP broadside is no joke, especially with her dispersion.

-Armour Layout: Similar to other T10s, it has 25mm of bow and stern armour and 30mm of upper belt and deck, but.....
The armour geometry is broken af.  The upper deck is flared out for most of the ship (look up in armour viewer).  This allows it to bounce 16 inch shells off its upper belt/deck readily.

-6.1s rudder shift with rudder mod.  This is an extremely agile ship, apart from German BBs and Izumo, you have a lot of time to dodge shells, especially if you are already kiting.

 

While most people fear the 18.8km stealth firing Zaos, they are not the most dangerous, nor the most OP.  The Zao players I fear are those running rudder 2/3 mod, and using RoF mod.  They are literally the most broken ships in the right hands.  Impossible to hit, high fires per minute, troll armour, what else you want to make it more irritating?

Case in point: After I changed from range mod to RoF mod, my average damage increased from ~88k to ~122k
This is not balanced at all.

 

So in conclusion, Zao is very survivable, due to maneuverability and troll armour layout, has excellent fire setting potential, has great AP to slam into CA broadsides.  The torpedoes are cherry on the cake.  You don't even need the torps, and it will still be OP.

 

I thought everyone know Zao is op :D

 

btw you run concealment mod or rudder 3?

Edited by R3negade

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Gotta nerf that long range AA DPS. And [edited] remove cruiser invisifiring already. Even Chapayev invisifiring is already quite broken. This one? Simply cheating.

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Super Tester
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I thought everyone know Zao is op :D

 

btw you run concealment mod or rudder 3?

 

I run Concealment since Rudder at 6.1s is pretty good already.  Concealment allows me to get into position before I start kiting and dodging.  

May try the rudder mod 3 someday though.

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I'm dreading IFHE on Zaou, to be honest. Zaou's HE alpha is already murderous enough.

-3% stock fire chance, -1% with DE for a chance to lolpen every BB bow that isn't German. Also it 43mm will murder most BB deck. 

 

Totally not broken.

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Beta Tester
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zao is the most annoying ship.

 

i'm more scared to zao than des moines when i'm on dd. her fast shell can nail dd at 15km. high apha damage that deal massive damages.

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Super Tester
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Nerf its AP and range. The HE may keep its power if we give it less space to utilise them and give other cruiser chance to actually get into a brawl with it.

 

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Super Tester
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Nerf its AP and range. The HE may keep its power if we give it less space to utilise them and give other cruiser chance to actually get into a brawl with it.

 

 

I think maneuverability is a far greater problem than Range and its great AP

 

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Super Tester
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Funny how you all adamantly agree than the Zao is OP. But I'll raise you a question, if the Zao is OP, surely it will have the best Win rate and damage, right?

ne11d34.png

pk6e7th.png

Vbg2cgm.png

PjrRIGD.png

 

Whoa, it has the most damage in EU, RU and NA. It sure is OP. But unfortunately for you, burning BBs at 18km doesn't win the game and every gamemode's objective isn't to see which team can burn the BBs the best. DM and Hind can both be way better fire starters and brawlers. The thing is, the powercreep of the meta means that things with smoke and radar will perform a lot better than those who do not. Hind sucks because her Hydro's range is too low and Hind suffers from horrendous AP penetration and "national peculiarity" HE.

If you ask me, the Zao needs a buff or a rework. Sure it has great armour but 40k HP at T10? Zero tools to deal with DDs (Mind you, cruiser's role is to support and hunt DDs). Not to mention DM, Hind and Minotaur all boast way better AA than Zao. I am not purposely trying to disagree but your arguments are extremely weak, not to mention anecdotal.

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Super Tester
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Funny how you all adamantly agree than the Zao is OP. But I'll raise you a question, if the Zao is OP, surely it will have the best Win rate and damage, right?

 

ne11d34.png

pk6e7th.png

Vbg2cgm.png

PjrRIGD.png

 

Whoa, it has the most damage in EU, RU and NA. It sure is OP. But unfortunately for you, burning BBs at 18km doesn't win the game and every gamemode's objective isn't to see which team can burn the BBs the best. DM and Hind can both be way better fire starters and brawlers. The thing is, the powercreep of the meta means that things with smoke and radar will perform a lot better than those who do not. Hind sucks because her Hydro's range is too low and Hind suffers from horrendous AP penetration and "national peculiarity" HE.

 

If you ask me, the Zao needs a buff or a rework. Sure it has great armour but 40k HP at T10? Zero tools to deal with DDs (Mind you, cruiser's role is to support and hunt DDs). Not to mention DM, Hind and Minotaur all boast way better AA than Zao. I am not purposely trying to disagree but your arguments are extremely weak, not to mention anecdotal.

 

Try playing a Zao with RoF Mod and RSM2/3 instead of the Range Mod like most players.

Zao's true OPness comes when she pushes into objectives, instead of sniping away at the back farming damage which majority of the players do.

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Super Tester
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Try playing a Zao with RoF Mod and RSM2/3 instead of the Range Mod like most players.

Zao's true OPness comes when she pushes into objectives, instead of sniping away at the back farming damage which majority of the players do.

 

So equipping RoF Mod will automatically give me a 10km radar to hunt DDs? RoF Mod will give me more survivability to tank torpedos and cruiser HE (since you seem to agree that it is immune to BB AP)? You're missing the point where DM, Minotaur and Hindenburg are all outright better brawlers than Zao WITH tools to deal with the smoke meta.

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Super Tester
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So equipping RoF Mod will automatically give me a 10km radar to hunt DDs? RoF Mod will give me more survivability to tank torpedos and cruiser HE (since you seem to agree that it is immune to BB AP)? You're missing the point where DM, Minotaur and Hindenburg are all outright better brawlers than Zao WITH tools to deal with the smoke meta.

 

10km radar with floaty DM shells sure go ahead. Good luck hitting the DD. Moskva cant push in without being long spotted so the DD you are trying to hunt is long gone.

Zaos 9.1km concealment and fast HE shells means Zao can sneak up and absolutely destroy DDs because it can get so close.

 

Zao's survivability comes from being maneuverable and agile. Its survivability comes from stealth firing and kiting (and not bow tanking against Yamato and reversing like Moskva)

Edited by TE_Deathskyz

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Wow. Top damage(by some margin), mostly 1st/2nd most kill/game, top survival rate, top most played. Some worse WR that still not as bad as Hindenburg. But you actually suggesting a buff? 

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Wow. Top damage(by some margin), mostly 1st/2nd most kill/game, top survival rate, top most played. Some worse WR that still not as bad as Hindenburg. But you actually suggesting a buff? 

Zao is a very strong ship, there's no denial of that. I think Lunatic is merely suggesting that Zao may not be as OP as we think in the current game meta

 

P.S. There are more things in heaven and sea than buffs and nerfs, senpai. 

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Super Tester
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10km radar with floaty DM shells sure go ahead. Good luck hitting the DD. Moskva cant push in without being long spotted so the DD you are trying to hunt is long gone.

Zaos 9.1km concealment and fast HE shells means Zao can sneak up and absolutely destroy DDs because it can get so close.

 

Zao's survivability comes from being maneuverable and agile. Its survivability comes from stealth firing and kiting (and not bow tanking and reversing like Moskva)

 

It is not my problem if you cannot hit a DD with DM. Second, you shoot at a DD from 10km, OK, you hit him with all 12 shots and deal 15k/20k damage and he smokes up, what then? Meanwhile everyone else could've completely removed the DD.

 

I mentioned nothing of Moskva yet you try to deflect the question. A Moskva like you said, can bow tank and boasts a 13km radar. It doesn't even need to push in when the only torps that would hit it would be Gearing's 16km torps, or are you suggesting it can easily get destroyed by AP and HE?

 

A Minotaur has less concealment than a Zao, has a much faster RoF (meaning you can adjust easier) and can easily penetrate DDs with their special AP.

 

The reason why Zao has such a large survivability percentage is because everyone adopts the invis firing technique. If you try to go in, it's survivavility will be much similar to the other 3 cruisers.

 

Wow. Top damage(by some margin), mostly 1st/2nd most kill/game, top survival rate, top most played. Some worse WR that still not as bad as Hindenburg. But you actually suggesting a buff? 

 

Midway has better stats than Hak yet less WR. Explain that.

Edited by LunaticRed

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It is not my problem if you cannot hit a DD with DM. Second, you shoot at a DD from 10km, OK, you hit him with all 12 shots and deal 15k/20k damage and he smokes up, what then? Meanwhile everyone else could've completely removed the DD.

Then its certainly not my problem that Yamato's can hit a reversing bow on Zao and delete them. 

 

I mentioned nothing of Moskva yet you try to deflect the question. A Moskva like you said, can bow tank and boasts a 13km radar. It doesn't even need to push in when the only torps that would hit it would be Gearing's 16km torps, or are you suggesting it can easily get destroyed by AP and HE?

I'm saying that your perceived view of Zao's being very weak and dying fast to BB shells is maybe because you try and bow tank in a Zao.

 

A Minotaur has less concealment than a Zao, has a much faster RoF (meaning you can adjust easier) and can easily penetrate DDs with their special AP.

Yes because all Minotaur shells are radar assisted and will magically guide themselves into Destroyers.  Furthermore, their 'fast' 

 

The reason why Zao has such a large survivability percentage is because everyone adopts the invis firing technique. If you try to go in, it's survivavility will be much similar to the other 3 cruisers.

Compared to the DM and Minotaur, it has 30mm plates and decks instead of 27mm so it can bounce off 16" shells.

Furthermore, its because the Zao's citadel doesnt extend out to the sides like Moskva, DM or Minotaur while the Hindenberg has the best due to turtleback and 30mm. What this means that you can pen the 30mm upper side or 100mm belt but still not citadel her and ricochet off her 40mm citadel protection/semi-turtleback.

It could also be because the Zao is more nimble than the other Cruisers.

 

Midway has better stats than Hak yet less WR. Explain that.

 

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[LBAS]
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Please nerf the invisible fire because it's nearby me below 10km still shoot me without detected 

 

the most annoying, ZAO can invisible fire
Edited by MatterCore

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[MEGA]
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A Minotaur has less concealment than a Zao, has a much faster RoF (meaning you can adjust easier) and can easily penetrate DDs with their special AP.

 

somthing to add here, the zao is a FAR better DD killer then minotaur, yes the mino has good concealment, yes it has good ROF, and i'll even add on the fact that it has radar.

 

but there's many catches to the "wonderful DD hunter minotaur"

1st, you can hunt DDs ONLY when they are stupid and gets close to you, because the shells have to reach a suborbital trajectory before hitting ships at 13+ KM, you can barely hit a kurfurst at that kind of range, while a zao can nail 3-7k per volly at DDs up to 16km away.

 

2nd, there's a very easy counter to "special AP shells". angling, a minotaur cant do anything against a angling DD rushing in or running away, the shells cant penn and will do negligible damage, meanwhile zao's ridiculous alpha will laugh and kill the DDs anyways

 

3rd. a mintaur cant "hunt" down DDs. because mintoaurs are the most hunted ships in game, it;s a floating citadel the size of the moon will tissue for armor. when you are detected by DDs, the first reaction of the minotaur player is never "oh goodie i have a DD to hunt", but "oh shit oh shit oh shit i need to smoke". at T10 any well placed salvo will send you right back to port, you cant afford to rush after a DD like a zao can

 

mintotaur<zao at DD hunting

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Super Tester
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Then its certainly not my problem that Yamato's can hit a reversing bow on Zao and delete them. 

 

I'm saying that your perceived view of Zao's being very weak and dying fast to BB shells is maybe because you try and bow tank in a Zao.

 

Yes because all Minotaur shells are radar assisted and will magically guide themselves into Destroyers.  Furthermore, their 'fast' 

 

 

Compared to the DM and Minotaur, it has 30mm plates and decks instead of 27mm so it can bounce off 16" shells.

Furthermore, its because the Zao's citadel doesnt extend out to the sides like Moskva, DM or Minotaur while the Hindenberg has the best due to turtleback and 30mm. What this means that you can pen the 30mm upper side or 100mm belt but still not citadel her and ricochet off her 40mm citadel protection/semi-turtleback.

It could also be because the Zao is more nimble than the other Cruisers.

 

I don't see why you need to move the goalposts.

 

Or maybe your perceived view of Zao is that it's very strong. I will again quote the part where I neglected BBs.

RoF Mod will give me more survivability to tank torpedos and cruiser HE (since you seem to agree that it is immune to BB AP)? 

 

Again, it isn't my fault if you can't aim with Minotaur's shells. If you want "fast" shells, then use Moskva.

 

Sure, you have strong armour but you suggest moving in close with the Zao to hunt DDs. I'm sure your nimbleness is redundant when you're within 10km of enemy DDs and Cruisers. Not to mention you should realise the cruiser meta of SEA which further proves that HE and torpedos are a much greater threat than BBs.

Edited by LunaticRed

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