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Gorbon_Rubsay

Balancing DDs... is it even possible?

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So I'm reading the 0.5.15 Japanese Destroyers Reshuffle Feedback thread which is 6 salty pages of tears and I'm thinking 'OK, the Hatsuharu kind of sucked but these people can't possible be playing the same ships as me....".  I seem to be of the (apparently rare) opinion that the .5.15 reshuffle was a massive buff to JP DDs in general and in that some cases the new ships are grossly OP. Then I realized... those guys are not playing the same ships as me

 

I am lucky enough to have enough to have the financial freedom to: 

A) Buy prem time so that I have enough silver to  free xp all upgrade + buy all required modules

B) Train up my captains to 15 points in a premium Atago before dropping them into my DDs

 

So, I've only really played the ships when the are maxed out.  The times I tried with a stock ship and a captain without CE (in the Fubuki & Hatsuharu), I gave up in disgust pretty quickly and decided to never do that again.  The issue is not that A ship is crap or that B ship is OP, it that taking one of these ships, upgrading torps, adding concealment mod + a 15 point captain turns a rusting river barge into a Romulan Bird of Prey.  Anyone who doesn't believe me needs to take a fully upgraded Kagero out for a spin (I think it is the worst offender):

 

Base Ship: Kagero

Key Build Points: Upgraded torps, concealment mod, torpedo reload booster, torpedo acceleration, advanced fire training, concealment expert:

Key Stats: 5.4KM detection range, 72 knot torps, 30 sec torp reload 3 times a game, 9.4~11.3KM steath firing range

 

Firing 2 sets of 72km torps from a range of under 6KM against Fuso just feels dirty.

 

It is pretty clear that WG has cocked up this rebalance and will need to do it again quite soon which is unpleasant for everyone. In order to prevent this from happening in future perhaps super testing needs to be changed. At risk of sounding like a dick because I have no understanding of how supertesting currently works (perhaps an ST can comment) might I suggest prototype ships be issued in groups with fix builds? IE one group gets the ship stock with a 3 point captain (cannot be upgraded in any way), one group with a medium build and one group with an maxed out build etc. This might prevent a ships being balance in a ways that are not so extreme in build sensitivity.

 

Otherwise, when the upcoming skill tree change comes perhaps all DDs could be buffed and DD related skills be nerfed? IE all DDs have detection range buffed (reduced) by 5% but Concealment Expert reduces detection range by 5% rather than 10% (it would still be essential).

 

I understand & appreciate WG's business model, but the current system seems so extreme that even a significant nerf to upgrades/skills and modules would not substantially affect player's willingness to buy them.  Cruisers and BBs do not suffer the same issue. They are playable stock and a little better maxed out  and that is how it should be.  The upgrades/skills should be a luxury - not a necessity.

 

 

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Drop the IJN DDs.

 

They will become obsolete and out of meta once the new German (and especially the new Russiand DDs) will be released.

 

They have been so nerfhammered to death that they've become total garbage to same-tier DDs. 

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Super Tester
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Try taking a CE and Torpedo acceleration Fubuki against tier 5-7 ship, mid-tier IJN DD are kind of meh without CE but the moment they got it however, the enemy team can only beg you misplay and get in a bad position. 9 62 knots torps wall from 7 km away is disgusting at tier 5-7

 

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Drop the IJN DDs.

 

They will become obsolete and out of meta once the new German (and especially the new Russiand DDs) will be released.

 

They have been so nerfhammered to death that they've become total garbage to same-tier DDs. 

 

Said that to those guys who use Kagerou and Akizuki in the Winter King tournament, they absolutely murder the old smoke meta with them.

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Drop the IJN DDs.

 

They will become obsolete and out of meta once the new German (and especially the new Russiand DDs) will be released.

 

They have been so nerfhammered to death that they've become total garbage to same-tier DDs. 

 

I think you will find that whatever you think of the recent re balance, the J DDs are still probably the most powerful in the game in randoms.  They are excellent scouts, can deal massive amount of damage and can throw the enemy fleet into chaos with their torpedo spreads - even if they don't hit anything.  US DDs are better at taking caps and killing J DDs ~ thats it; they are better in Ranked where caps are super important.  Russian DDs blaze around at 200kmh, blast hundreds high velocity shells into the enemy.... which do no damage at all. While super fun to play - they are basically useless.

 

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I think you will find that whatever you think of the recent re balance, the J DDs are still probably the most powerful in the game in randoms.  They are excellent scouts, can deal massive amount of damage and can throw the enemy fleet into chaos with their torpedo spreads - even if they don't hit anything.  US DDs are better at taking caps and killing J DDs ~ thats it; they are better in Ranked where caps are super important.  Russian DDs blaze around at 200kmh, blast hundreds high velocity shells into the enemy.... which do no damage at all. While super fun to play - they are basically useless.

 

 

This isn't that true. I've spent more time in tier 8 battles in the Fubuki and I can tell you that it's hell with 7km detection range. Hatsuharu, Mutsuki, Minekaze (and all her variant), Kagerou, Benson, Shiratsuyu, Akizuki will all spot you before you spot them. You will be face checking the rest, except for the Russian DDs. 

 

All this applies to the Akatsuki too, except you get the worse bunch, with Fletcher and Yuugumo at tier 9 added onto the already crazy Akizuki and Benson.

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This isn't that true. I've spent more time in tier 8 battles in the Fubuki and I can tell you that it's hell with 7km detection range. Hatsuharu, Mutsuki, Minekaze (and all her variant), Kagerou, Benson, Shiratsuyu, Akizuki will all spot you before you spot them. You will be face checking the rest, except for the Russian DDs. 

 

All this applies to the Akatsuki too, except you get the worse bunch, with Fletcher and Yuugumo at tier 9 added onto the already crazy Akizuki and Benson.

 

I think you are agreeing with my original point. At 7KM the Fubuki is a bXtch... at around 6km? Just fine.
Edited by Gorbon_Rubsay

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Super Tester
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Balancing DDs is hard, so far USN is king from T6 onwards, with the exception of premiums and Tier 10 cos Khaba is simply OP.

 

IJN DDs are excellent noob deletion ships.  For anything else even remotely resembling competence, the more versatile USN DDs are superior. 

Of course as of late we have seen a huge number of poor players in high tier, so IJN DDs may seem to perform well.

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I think you are agreeing with my original point. At 6.7KM the Fubuki is a bXtch... at 6.1km? Just fine.

 

And how many people would have CE at that tier? And I'm agguing about your quote that says 

 

 

the J DDs are still probably the most powerful in the game in randoms. 

 

 

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To OP: Your ship is OP now because very small amount of DD player actually play their DDs with CE. After the commander skill update, the experience is more similar to IJN DD players not using CE than your experience now, except everything will now happen much closer, which an IJN DD will never want.

 

Besides torping lonely BBs, it is generally not good to torp things up close. Cruisers like Belfast have 8.7km concealment, while Atago and Mogami is well in the 9km area. You don't want to find out that there is CE Benson between you and these ships on an IJN DD, which Fubuki and Akatsuki will find difficult to avoid if they try to close in torp. With everything CEed, being spotted is a lot more dangerous as the distance will be so much closer.

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http://worldofwarships.com/en/news/common/update-notes-0516/

haha , buff IJN ? what u thing ? wg say NO !

 

See? See how they turned Mutsucky even more garbage than she was?

 

Why even play them in the first place? This is WG practically telling you not to play IJN DDs.

Edited by Ryuuoh_DeltaPlus

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It is pretty clear that WG has cocked up this rebalance and will need to do it again quite soon which is unpleasant for everyone. In order to prevent this from happening in future perhaps super testing needs to be changed. At risk of sounding like a dick because I have no understanding of how supertesting currently works (perhaps an ST can comment) might I suggest prototype ships be issued in groups with fix builds? IE one group gets the ship stock with a 3 point captain (cannot be upgraded in any way), one group with a medium build and one group with an maxed out build etc. This might prevent a ships being balance in a ways that are not so extreme in build sensitivity.

 

Otherwise, when the upcoming skill tree change comes perhaps all DDs could be buffed and DD related skills be nerfed? IE all DDs have detection range buffed (reduced) by 5% but Concealment Expert reduces detection range by 5% rather than 10% (it would still be essential).

 

I understand & appreciate WG's business model, but the current system seems so extreme that even a significant nerf to upgrades/skills and modules would not substantially affect player's willingness to buy them.  Cruisers and BBs do not suffer the same issue. They are playable stock and a little better maxed out  and that is how it should be.  The upgrades/skills should be a luxury - not a necessity.

 

 

 

I feel the issues are definitely on the build options more than the ships. The difference between the peak of the mountain and the hinterland seems too skewed.

 

 

Premium consumables especially on DD's for example are substantial boons. In most instances you can re-engage almost 30-40% faster than anybody who isn't using them, which strategically is a significant advantage.

 

 

Related, since CV's tend to be not such a common sight I don't know if I have a statistical feel on it, but if you ever find a 15 pt captain in a Saipan in mid tiers on one team and the other one doesn't there seems to be a significant tendency for the team with the 15 pt Saipan to win.

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I hate CE and AS so much. CE interrupts the natural increase of detection range on DD and gives t8 DD way too much of an advantage compared to t6/7. AS is completely a stupid idea, contributing nothing to the game except to encourage more CV seal clubbers. Those 2 skills should have been removed long ago and game balance would be way better than it is now. Sadly, the preview of upcoming captain skill rework still showed them in existence.

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View PostCCloak, on 20 December 2016 - 01:48 PM, said:

To OP: Your ship is OP now because very small amount of DD player actually play their DDs with CE. After the commander skill update, the experience is more similar to IJN DD players not using CE than your experience now, except everything will now happen much closer, which an IJN DD will never want.

Besides torping lonely BBs, it is generally not good to torp things up close. Cruisers like Belfast have 8.7km concealment, while Atago and Mogami is well in the 9km area. You don't want to find out that there is CE Benson between you and these ships on an IJN DD, which Fubuki and Akatsuki will find difficult to avoid if they try to close in torp. With everything CEed, being spotted is a lot more dangerous as the distance will be so much closer.

Actually, as a J DD player, you want everything (except American DDs) to be as close to possible.  I always try to release torps at minimum range - generally detection +.5 KM.   At that range with torp acceleration, the choice in your head is not will I hit, but how wide should I spread & I am happy with 1 hit or or should I risk going for more? While I've seen some very skilled dodging, your target has to be A) very awake B) a ninja.

 

As to the CE issue I feel like minimum detection range for a J destroy should be around 6km with all upgrades. Stock, maybe 6.5km. Equivalent US DDs should be about +.3KM. The smaller J destoyers will need a maneuverability buff to compensate.

 

AFT is nuts too. 20% is just too big. 13KM+ in the Shiratsuyu - almost 4KM of invisifire.  I was gonna say 20% might be OK for secondaries.... then I remembered Bismark...

 

Also agree on Phutev's point. If you don't have a 15 point captain in your CV ~ you are putting your team in jeopardy.

 

Edited by Gorbon_Rubsay

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The only difference in a 15 point capt is basically how aggressive you can play. If you dint have it, then being on the defensive still can net you a win.

 

And for AS to CV, it can be a double edge sword too where if i managed to kill your whole squadron, your reserves deplete faster and you potentially will have 1 less wave of planes.

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I hate CE and AS so much. CE interrupts the natural increase of detection range on DD and gives t8 DD way too much of an advantage compared to t6/7. AS is completely a stupid idea, contributing nothing to the game except to encourage more CV seal clubbers. Those 2 skills should have been removed long ago and game balance would be way better than it is now. Sadly, the preview of upcoming captain skill rework still showed them in existence.

 

I am hyped about this captain skill rework, think about it. Instead of grinding 15pts now you only need 10 for crucial skill, its not much right?

This means everybody should have the same crucial skills whether its CE or AS. The only possible thing could happen (which I don't like the sound of it) is more concealment meta across all tiers.

 

Anyway about this topic.

All ships across all nations have their speciality. For IJN DDs' case its concealment and torpedoes*. there's nothing wrong playing to the ship's advantage its smart even if its dirty.

 

*If they do nerf this some more then there's no more reason to play IJN DDs mind you. Hello USN DDs, KM DDs.

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I think you will find that whatever you think of the recent re balance, the J DDs are still probably the most powerful in the game in randoms.  They are excellent scouts, can deal massive amount of damage and can throw the enemy fleet into chaos with their torpedo spreads - even if they don't hit anything.  US DDs are better at taking caps and killing J DDs ~ thats it; they are better in Ranked where caps are super important.  Russian DDs blaze around at 200kmh, blast hundreds high velocity shells into the enemy.... which do no damage at all. While super fun to play - they are basically useless.

 

 

After this I stopped taking this guy seriously. He lacks proper understanding of dds from other nations.

 

He says,

A) USN DD s are just good for capping and killing j DD.

B) implied caps aren't that important for random battles

C) says vmf dds are useless.

D) enemy team begging for mercy from ijn DDs in his dream.

 

He must be playing some other game.

 

Here's the thing, ijn dds relies on enemy mistakes. They are mostly useless in the presence of CV or other ships with detecting abilities. Check server average for a good starting point. Most powerful dds with worst possible stats. Only 3-4 ships from the whole class is worth mentioning.

Edited by icy_phoenix

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if you think fubuki with 7 km detection is bad, USN mahan say hi to you.... :trollface:

7.9 km detection without CE and camo

slow torpedoes 55 knot ad low damage

speed ? only 34-35 knot kek

the good one is only the gun, yeah standart USN with high dpm 

Edited by Gesterbein

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See? See how they turned Mutsucky even more garbage than she was?

 

Why even play them in the first place? This is WG practically telling you not to play IJN DDs.

 

Do you even read the full patch note? They are giving back 127mm DP to Akatsuki and Yuugumo, both I considered a really nice buff.

 

 

Also you guys should see who's the queen at t7 this week

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I think you will find that whatever you think of the recent re balance, the J DDs are still probably the most powerful in the game in randoms.  They are excellent scouts, can deal massive amount of damage and can throw the enemy fleet into chaos with their torpedo spreads - even if they don't hit anything.  US DDs are better at taking caps and killing J DDs ~ thats it; they are better in Ranked where caps are super important.  Russian DDs blaze around at 200kmh, blast hundreds high velocity shells into the enemy.... which do no damage at all. While super fun to play - they are basically useless.

 

 

I have played both IJN (pre-0.5.14 as well) and USN DD's. IJN DD's will get stomped flat, period. It's not even close to an argument at all. As Icy mentioned, they are too reliant on ppl's mistake and u punish their mistakes accordingly. The new Yuugumo can only fight Benson head on (also there are odds that u might even lose if the Benson does a quick sudden turn) and that's it. 

 

@Gesten - Not to mention with that speed, u take ages to reach a certain cap zone :trollface:

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if you think fubuki with 7 km detection is bad, USN mahan say hi to you.... :trollface:

7.9 km detection without CE and camo

slow torpedoes 55 knot ad low damage

speed ? only 34-35 knot kek

the good one is only the gun, yeah standart USN with high dpm 

 

Mahan is a solid ship even though the detection range is crappy, her guns are much more reliable and the torpedoes are OK-ish (don't forget USN smok). Fubuki in other hand, she's not only have crappy guns but also poor detection range. You can only rely on her torpedoes, and with them reloading, you can't do much stuff except stick close to your allies

 

 

Edit: It's not a wise statement to compare T6 ship to T7 one. DDs are generally required high skill floor, but tier-to-tier, IJN DDs are now required higher skill floor compared to other DDs from another nation.

 

As xscore said, IJN DDs are good at deleting noobs who sail on straight line or skrubs who stayed inside smok for too long, yet on higher tier you are suffered by hydro and radar. You have to know when to shoot and when to position yourself in the battle. High situational awareness is required to play them.

Edited by kentanghalla

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