Jump to content
You need to play a total of 10 battles to post in this section.
silenthunter19944

World of Warships - The Current State of Battleships (Video)

28 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

Member
1,196 posts
2,883 battles

Hi all, just saw a video on Youtube about the state of battleships as of the moment and I find the video to be somewhat accurate and quite interesting. I want everyone to watch the video and gives their opinion on the topic. I will give a TLDR statement but the video explains the situation a whole lot better than I can.

TLDR: No reason to play USN BBs as they don't have any advantages over other nation's BB. IJN BBs are ok, KM BB are OP.

Edited by silenthunter19944

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
2,083 posts
5,169 battles

>KM are OP

 

the main reason KM has higher exp and damage is because most players who play them tend to be more aggressive. when they push flank they receive lots of attention and tank lots of damage, they can also fire more accurate shot because they move close to target instead of just camping at the back and delivering inaccurate fire while not able to tank damage. also fires cause by secondary are really decent.

 

i agree with the part that USN are suffering right now, the main reason for that is there are no Carriers to keep the other nation BB with lower AA in check. KM has really poor torpedo belt and one strike from CV can sink if not crippler them. while IJN can survive two strike because of their ridiculous torpedo protection (specially yamato).

 

back in OPB i was really looking forward to play NC because of her AA but right now i don't even wanted to grind up to her because there are no planes to shoot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
1,105 posts
7,834 battles

That video is bull IMO

IEarl vids seems better one.

 

IMO, People who play German BB is play "how to BB" more properly.

They Closer to front line, so Their DPM become more consistent, They tank for the team, and facilitate push for the team.

They dont have 30km range, so they can shoot from map border, they have awfull dispersion that halt them to become those sniper BB, comunity hate for

 

People might  want to say, stats here, stats there

German Battleship have worst survivability record. even what people say op one like Grosser kurfurst, Bismark, Tirpitz, Scharnhorst, Gneisenau

Tier to Tier, they hold worst Survivability rating

 

For a Ship that say, Hard to Citadel or even Imune  to Citadel

they certainly die a lot, compared to their peers doesnt it

 

Turtleback Armor, sure good. But still every BB without Turtleback were hard to kill when angled properly

it just put their mind to ease,confidence booster or even a placebo 

The real reason for Why they seems so good ? Because they closer to front lines. that is the answer

Edited by humusz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
1,196 posts
2,883 battles

That video is bull IMO

IEarl vids seems better one.

 

IMO, People who play German BB is play "how to BB" more properly.

They Closer to front line, so Their DPM become more consistent, They tank for the team, and facilitate push for the team.

They dont have 30km range, so they can shoot from map border, they have awfull dispersion that halt them to become those sniper BB, comunity hate for

 

People might  want to say, stats here, stats there

German Battleship have worst survivability record. even what people say op one like Grosser kurfurst, Bismark, Tirpitz, Scharnhorst, Gneisenau

Tier to Tier, they hold worst Survivability rating

 

For a Ship that say, Hard to Citadel or even Imune  to Citadel

they certainly die a lot, compared to their peers doesnt it

 

Turtleback Armor, sure good. But still every BB without Turtleback were hard to kill when angled properly

it just put their mind to ease,confidence booster or even a placebo 

The real reason for Why they seems so good ? Because they closer to front lines. that is the answer

Uhhh. What are you trying to prove. You are only looking at one stats out of everything else. By that logic Bismarck is OP because of its high damage. German BB dies more because it doesn't match the World of Cowards community and is more likely to be left out in the open when closing the distant to enemy ships... This is why they have a lower survivability rate. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Super Tester
7,522 posts
7,978 battles

Turtleback Armor, sure good. But still every BB without Turtleback were hard to kill when angled properly

it just put their mind to ease,confidence booster or even a placebo 

The real reason for Why they seems so good ? Because they closer to front lines. that is the answer

 

Please, no offense, but consider this: why is your other BB stats are worse than your German BB stats even when you know how to get better stats in BBs? Well its because of that. While German BBs are immune to citadel from close range, they only take pen damage. For the other classes, they also take pen damage plus the citadel hits which are absolutely killer. You simply cant get close with high tier BBs without proper scenario which is much easier in case of German BBs. Bad TDS? Look at USN TDS, they are almost as bad. German BBs have very good hydro and secondaries which are usually a counter to long range torpedo boats and gunboats those need to stay closer to targets. Not like German BBs can yolo rush, but they are much more survivable in all situation considered.

 

This is what I posted to Zoup's video

"Well, german ships are noob friendly. Half of the population got their hands on German BBs after they have seen enough of other BB plays, so no wonder they did much better. And for newer players, they can show broadside (which is sadly a common trend in NA) and not get deleted like the counterparts, they live longer and deal more damage. They are also relatively new to saturate the win rate. I think given long enough time, the win rate will be back to the same range as IJN and USN ones."

 

But then again, we know that server stats are not concrete measurement of anything since they tend to be skewed by below average plays.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
1,105 posts
7,834 battles

 

Please, no offense, but consider this: why is your other BB stats are worse than your German BB stats even when you know how to get better stats in BBs? Well its because of that. While German BBs are immune to citadel from close range, they only take pen damage. For the other classes, they also take pen damage plus the citadel hits which are absolutely killer. You simply cant get close with high tier BBs without proper scenario which is much easier in case of German BBs. Bad TDS? Look at USN TDS, they are almost as bad. German BBs have very good hydro and secondaries which are usually a counter to long range torpedo boats and gunboats those need to stay closer to targets. Not like German BBs can yolo rush, but they are much more survivable in all situation considered.

 

This is what I posted to Zoup's video

"Well, german ships are noob friendly. Half of the population got their hands on German BBs after they have seen enough of other BB plays, so no wonder they did much better. And for newer players, they can show broadside (which is sadly a common trend in NA) and not get deleted like the counterparts, they live longer and deal more damage. They are also relatively new to saturate the win rate. I think given long enough time, the win rate will be back to the same range as IJN and USN ones."

 

But then again, we know that server stats are not concrete measurement of anything since they tend to be skewed by below average plays.

 

Mostly because I learn litteraly "How to BB" in them - especialy tirpitz,

I strugle a lot with IJN BB - since they the first BB line I tried.

I abandon the line halfway in Fuso.

 

Play a lot of Tirpitz game (few hunderds of them If iI belive - for credits mostly) 

Then I finished Nagato, and Get to Amagi, and there a lot of lesson I got playing that Tirpitz got payed off

The story goes on, German BB released then the Grind German BB begins, and I grind them all the way to kurfurst (Mostly because I like how handsome they looks, their grey camo and such is very sweet)

 

There warspite I buy in between, that I buy after British CL news

I plan to grind captain on them, and using warspite on T6 Ranked

 

And recently I continue my USN BB, that I stoped grinding long time ago

My New York and New Mexico record is veery much fresh (just around 2-3 months old)

Ill buy Izumo and colorado latter, when I have credits. and continue the journey in future

 

Thats concur my stats Journey :D

What German BB thought me, were You need to get close to get more consistent result. Tirpitz wash my bad habbit - I learned till fuso

that just my experience and take, lads

Edited by humusz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
1,105 posts
7,834 battles

See that's what exactly I wrote in bold lines :)

 

What bold line ?

Uhhh. What are you trying to prove. You are only looking at one stats out of everything else. By that logic Bismarck is OP because of its high damage. German BB dies more because it doesn't match the World of Cowards community and is more likely to be left out in the open when closing the distant to enemy ships... This is why they have a lower survivability rate. 

 

Either way, I agree German BB are easier to play, and better in general - but OP ?

they dont accomodate bad habbit, like snipping for example. instead it urge people to get in the front sometimes to borderline overextended

 

I also dont like stats,since it was skewed

but for people that like to use them, consider this

German BB were higher dmg, higher Win rate but they are also Lowest survivability (which Is their main point doesnt it)

 

If they are OP (IMO at least), then they should Also have best survivablity record of all their peers

Like Imperator Nikolai

 

 

how statistician interpert  those number

were German BB die more than their peers, because they are closer and most likely to focused and die ? -  their status seems to reflect that behavior

its more  High risk, High reward

 

 

And also, There is no T7-T8 IJN or USN BB (but KLM have Scharn and Tirp - great and very popular ship that populated those tier)

if there is good (or any) premium for other nation, at that tier - there should be more People playing other line

since T7-T8 ship, span from T5 to T10 match - which is most played I belive.

which can skew perception, why there are so many German BB. 

 

Remember,those 2 ship - are good credit earner - in most Profitable tier so, ofc people play it  realy realy often

which lead to more encounter (the chance a BB you encounter in T7 (and T8) were Germans is 50% - because they have 2 Battleship at that tier)  .

Also, People back to premium more often - compared to Regular one. sometimes bringing those 18 point captain with them, very Experienced player can  also short on cash. and they play those credits ships often

so it skew perception that too many german BB in waters, and performance to a  certain degree

 

If there is T7-T8 good premium IJN/USN Battleships, that as good as getting credits as those 2

will the Nation distribution better ? - I belive so

 

whats your oppinion, lads ?

 

 

 

 

Edited by humusz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[MEGA]
Member
4,561 posts
17,548 battles

KM BBs are stupidly hard to kill, you can damage them fairly easy, but they are damn hard to kill. IMHO, most KM BB players have the mentality of "I KM BB I MuST FRONT LINE HURR DUHH" and then proceeds to yolo and charge like a dumb donkey and comlpain that "HE IS OP HURR DUHH', well yeah, no. people need to learn the meaning of a "tactical retreat“, and when they do, they will realize the stats are being dragged down by... well dumb donkeys

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
783 posts
4,808 battles

KM BBs as already stated just have the benefit of turtleback armor which makes any mistakes they do against other AP shooters to be less devastating.

 

Hence, average would of course be higher. What a killshot would be against the IJN/USN is simply just a HP chip against a KM battleship.

 

But when the lines are played to their potential, no the KM BBs are not OP.

Just so happens they are more friendly and less punishing for players overall.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Moderator
4,163 posts
1,874 battles

I think it's time I bring up the idea of the skill floor and skill ceiling once again.

 

The skill floor is the minimum amount of skill required to perform effectively in a ship. This typically translates to being able to do damage, capture zones, and not dying without at least doing something for the team.

 

The skill ceiling, however, is the maximum potential of a ship - when wielded by a player with full understanding of the game. In this case, everything mentioned in the above is already a given, and crucially, skill ceilings concern the player actions that go more towards actively weighting the balance of the game towards your team as opposed to the enemy team. Statistically speaking, no matter what a player does, he's likely to lose around 40-45% of his games, while winning another 40-45%. The remaining 10-20% is where player mastery of their ships come into play, where players can actively have a gigantic influence on the outcomes of their games.

 

Bearing this in mind, battleships demand a specific skillset - primarily, a strategic mind to determine where your battleship is needed the most in a battle to exert the maximum amount of influence. Any mistake in a battleship can be fatal, since you can't easily reposition your ship or your guns. The consequences of each choice you make in a battleship may not be immediately apparent - frequently, they only appear many minutes after you make that choice. Some players don't even realize they're making choices - things like where to move at the start of a match, where to point your guns, how much throttle to set, when to turn, whether or not to shoot: all these are decisions that a battleship driver have to make, and the key difference between a bad BB player and a good one is recognizing when decisions are being made, and consciously making decisions to contribute towards team victory. The differing factors between each battleship line means each battleship has a distinctly different skill floor compared to the other lines - which means different levels of decisions and differing levels of leniency for poor decision-making. Some players have already brought up elements of this, but I'll go into it a bit further.

 

Let's throw out the tier 3 battleships for consideration separately from the rest of the line - these three (Kawachi, South Carolina and Nassau) are generally designed to be artificially difficult to play to serve as a gatekeeper for the battleship lines. As such, they generally perform around the same. Kawachi and Nassau feature the European-style wing turrets, making it less tough to switch broadsides as two of their four turrets need only shift a maximum of 90 degrees to begin firing when the ship pulls a 180 degree turn. However, both of them feature slightly less armour than the South Carolina - which can be pretty telling in the HE slingfests of the low tiers as an angled South Carolina can essentially laugh off shellfire. Not to mention the barbettes of the side turrets constitute a weak point for the Kawachi and Nassau.

 

I don't really want to go tier-by-tier after this. It's a long, annoying process, but the global statistics can be found on maplesyrup. However, one thing to keep in mind is that stats can lie - if presented in a specific manner. This is not to say that quantitative analysis of available statistics is worthless. It isn't. However, when utilizing quantitative statistics, you want to keep the limitations of the statistics in mind while backing it up with qualitative analysis of the ships themselves. I'll generalize some qualitative bits here, now.

 

Moving on through the tiers, you'll tend to see some of the national flavours taking shape. From tiers 4-7, USN BBs feature a dreadnought-style design: slow, but pretty brutally armoured and armed. They're designed to be capable of resisting their own calibre of guns. Meanwhile their tiers 8-10 battleships are fast, well-armed, but relatively unprotected against battleship guns. 

 

The Tier 4, 5 and 8 IJN battleships are essentially uparmoured battleships, but sacrifice protection for speed while maintaining battleship-grade weaponry. Meanwhile, their tiers 6, 7, 9 battleships feature an emphasis on high quality units, designed to be capable of rivaling and killing other battleships. They do sacrifice some armour for this capability, but in general, IJN BBs make up for this relative lack of survivability in their middle tiers with an awesome range coupled by good speed, allowing them, essentially, to be able to properly dictate the range of engagement. And of course, there's Yamato at t10 with her monster guns and armour.

 

Meanwhile, the Imperial German warships tend to have a focus on protection to a bit of an extreme. Whereas only a couple ships on the other BB lines have a turtleback armour scheme on their citadels, pretty much almost every ship in the German battleship line features this - resulting in increased protection from shots headed to their broadside. However, they're considerably undergunned compared to their USN and IJN counterparts.

 

So what does this mean? It means, generally speaking, that the skill floor for USN battleships is quite a bit higher than their counterparts. From tiers 4-7, USN battleships are pretty slow with limited range compared to their counterparts. As such, this requires considerable forethought and strategic planning, as bad decisions are punished hard in a USN dreadnought-pattern battleship, either by finding yourself unable to run from an ambush or focus-fired when you blunder into superior forces, or by being out of range of the action - in both cases, unable to effect the outcome of the match. Tiers 8-10 are more able to reposition and stay in action, but are punished incredibly hellishly for not keeping in mind their positioning and keeping track of enemy warships. This doesn't mean USN battleships are bad, or that they need a buff. It means that they have a higher skill floor, which means they're generally harder to play for the average player due to the skillset required. However, once you get through that skill floor, the skill ceiling is pretty much on par with other battleship lines, if not higher due to their ability to completely shrug off punishment.

 

Take, for example, the famed German turtlebacks resulting in them not taking citadel hits easily. This translates to a lower skill floor, since having their broadside exposed is not likely to be punished as hard as compared to an IJN or USN battleship - which typically means risky players will be able to fire all their turrets at stuff more often. The downside, however, is that the relatively lack of armour on the deck and outer areas, coupled with generally lower gun calibres (t4-t5, t7-t8) means that against an equally-skilled player on the other side, German BBs can struggle to do damage, while taking incredible amounts of regular penetration damage in return. Of course, equal skill levels aren't always the case, so by and large, a good player in a German BB can pretty much reach the skill floor faster and easier than one in a USN or IJN BB, and begin affecting the outcomes of battles much more easily.

 

If you're going to skip over the rest of the post, at least read this part:

 

So what's the point of this long novel? I refer to my previous post about the criticisms to Zoup's video as posted in the OP. It kind of glosses over the qualitative aspects of the individual ships/ship lines and the limitations of statistics. Warships.today, while useful, only shows players who've searched or been searched on the site itself. There's a couple tens of thousands of accounts tracked on that site, compared to about a hundred or so thousand active accounts on Asia server alone. Even utilizing maplesyrup, which uses a crawler to obtain a much better sample size, you have to remember that the level of detail provided by the Wargaming publically-tracked statistics is nowhere near the amount of statistics actually tracked by the server and visible only to Wargaming staff themselves - we're talking damage done broken down by type, heatmaps of where ships go and sink, average time alive, number of shells fired, etc, that aren't shown in the stat-tracking websites. And once more, quantitative analysis has to be backed up and supported by a qualitative analysis of the statistics itself. So, jumping right in and complaining about OP and UP ships and saying there's no reason to play USN BBs based entirely on a limited statistical selection is a bit...premature at best, and flawed at worst.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
295 posts
6,592 battles

i actually like my montana, good speed and good concealment at 13km for a battleship with 12 16 inch guns is really- really nice, her concealment is her armor

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
207 posts
8,174 battles

sorry KM BB is not OP...

why ? they made from gasoline, easy to set fire lol (as DD player, KM BB help me to get arsonist medal) :trollface:

with current HE spamming meta, 30 sec. damecon is much worthy for BB.. (USN BB)

Edited by Gesterbein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Super Tester
7,522 posts
7,978 battles

sorry KM BB is not OP...

why ? they made from gasoline, easy to set fire lol (as DD player, KM BB help me to get arsonist medal) :trollface:

with current HE spamming meta, 30 sec. damecon is much worthy for BB.. (USN BB)

 

Its 20s.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Super Tester
1,397 posts
13,360 battles

TLDR: No reason to play USN BBs as they don't have any advantages over other nation's BB. IJN BBs are ok, KM BB are OP.

 

In case if you dont know. Tier 8, 9, X USN BB hits hard on KM BB. NC and Iowa class is very mobile.  Missouri is an enhanced Iowa...
Edited by R3negade

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Super Tester
7,522 posts
7,978 battles

 

In case if you dont know. Tier 8, 9, X USN BB hits hard on KM BB. NC and Iowa class is very mobile.  Missouri is an enhanced Iowa...

 

Very true. I will go for NC in a NC vs Bismarck brawl anyday. If both players are competent, Bismarck is at quite a lot disadvantage. But server average on damage statistics doesn't really tell you about engagement to judge them tier for tier. So the video is kinda pointless.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×