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BunnyDragon

An Honest Defensive Fire Discussion

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I honestly thought there would be more discussion about this sense I Chase brought it up in his video with some devs. Sense no one else is bringing it up, I will because I want some honest discussions about this suggestion.

 

I'm including a link to the video here.

 

First of all, while I'm not a CV main, BB main, I don't want to see CV's disappear or to be nerfed into not being able to delete ships at will.  I like the challenge that they bring to the game.  If you don't like how I understand this suggestion, that's ok. But please, use current game mechanics as an argument, not I hate CVs because they delete me yoloing.  (That's what CV's do, delete big ships yoloing.) So let's get to it.

 

I forget where he makes this suggestion to Defensive Fire, but it's in there.

 

My understanding of the suggestion is that Defensive Fire would be changed in how it works in the game.  All ships that currently have defensive fire won't have DF removed.  If it's American (and Premium of course) it won't change at all, but for all other ships the panic is removed.  That is all.  The damange increase that you get is still there, but not the panic.  So, if you get 2 squadrons shot down in a DF use, then you still do.  This would be a buff for CV's and American Cruisers and when you think about it, a buff to DD's. This would let CV's focus on someone other than DD's in the game and give purpose to American Cruisers as they really don't have anything special about them anymore. 

 

I've got to run back to work and will most likely get back later, (24hours or more) but go ahead and leave comments about what's up now.

 

Let the discussion begin! (Please no comments of it's bad or good because it's bad or good.  Give in game examples of both ways. Honest discussion here.)

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Beta Tester
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Seems like a reasonable idea. Removing the panic effect might actually help some ships, especially those with a lot of AA firepower. CV Players can easily notice when their squadrons are panicking and quickly withdraw them - without that visible warning mechanism, they might not realise that they have entered an active Defensive Fire zone. Until they suddenly lose all their planes, that is.

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Seems like a reasonable idea. Removing the panic effect might actually help some ships, especially those with a lot of AA firepower. CV Players can easily notice when their squadrons are panicking and quickly withdraw them - without that visible warning mechanism, they might not realise that they have entered an active Defensive Fire zone. Until they suddenly lose all their planes, that is.

 

That's actually blessing in disguise huh?

like for example, full AA spec Hindenburg with DF AA can wipe out an entire squad easily, and without the panic effect, some CV player wont even notice that they run into an active DF AA.

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Super Tester
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Like skooma mentioned, this is going to be a problem. They can give *panic* as a national flavor to US, but then some kind of indication has to be there so that CVs know they are entering active DFAA zone. WG can implement something like the smoke circle. DFAA active zone can be highlighted.

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I find the opposite more viable. Take the damage out, panic remain and then add increase range by around more than 30%. Now it will live up to its name and be used by ca to reach out its aa bubble to that one unfortunate bb rather than just completely disintegrating flyovers. Might even help out dogfights among other things if the cv and ca cooperate for a bait. ..... Anyway yeah us ca needs some tweaks

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If you remove the panic for most CA , dont worry pal , a Taiho will delete you in 1 go or a full wombo combo from Lexi + will take you out of the game. Just you know I am not the top of CV captains and i can still do it on cocky battleship or IJN cruiser that forget to bring DFAA. Carriers are a class of all or nothing , removing panic will help newer and less experienced cv captain but it will be an OP buff for those that learn how to manual drop with precision.

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Like skooma mentioned, this is going to be a problem. They can give *panic* as a national flavor to US, but then some kind of indication has to be there so that CVs know they are entering active DFAA zone. WG can implement something like the smoke circle. DFAA active zone can be highlighted.

 

Not really, just a UI warning is more than enough.

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Maybe keep the panic and just give non-USN Cruisers a lower damage multiplier (eg. x2) on their Defensive Fire. It's only Cleveland (Tier 6) and Des Moines (Tier 10) that have genuinely powerful AA in the USN Cruiser line - and Cleveland is rumoured to be moving to Tier 8 sometime in the future, where her AA will be fairly unimpressive.

 

So with x3 for USN Cruisers, and x2 for everything else, here's how they would compare. Full AA-spec and active Defensive Fire is assumed:

 

Tier 6

         Aoba - 279 dps out to 4.4 km. Panic aura is 6.5 km.

 Cleveland - 815 dps out to 5.1 km. Panic aura is 7.2km. Interesting to note that she still outputs 594 dps just with the long range 7.2 km aura.

  Nurnberg - 304 dps out to 5.1 km. Panic aura is 5.7 km.

Budyonny - 290 dps out to 4.4 km. Panic aura is 7.2 km.

 

Tier 7

  Myoukou - 420 dps out to 4.4 km. Panic aura is 7.2 km.

Pensacola - 696 dps out to 5.1 km. Panic aura is 6.0 km.

     Atlanta - 799 dps out to 7.2 km. Panic aura is 7.2 km.

        Yorck - 394 dps out to 5.1 km. Panic aura is 6.5 km.

   Shchors - 337 dps out to 5.1 km. Panic aura is 7.2 km.

 

Tier 8

            Mogami - 367 dps out to 4.4 km. Panic aura is 7.2 km.

    New Orleans696 dps out to 5.1 km. Panic aura is 6.0 km. Still outclassed, even with the x3 DF!

Admiral Hipper - 736 dps out to 5.1 km. Panic aura is 6.5 km.

        Chapayev - 627 dps out to 5.1 km. Panic aura is 7.2 km.

           Kutuzov - 840 dps out to 5.1 km. Panic aura is 7.2 km.

 

Tier 9

          Ibuki -    877 dps out to 4.4 km. Panic aura is 7.2 km.

  Baltimore - 1,539 dps out to 5.1 km. Panic aura is 7.2 km.

         Roon1,004 dps out to 5.1 km. Panic aura is 6.5 km.

D. Donskoi -   985 dps out to 5.1 km. Panic aura is 7.2 km.

 

Tier 10

              Zao - 1,243 dps out to 4.4 km. Panic aura is 7.2 km.

Des Moines - 2,133 dps out to 5.1 km. Panic aura is 7.2 km.

Hindenburg - 1,298 dps out to 6.5 km. Panic aura is 7.2 km.

       Moskva - 1,095 dps out to 4.4 km. Panic aura is 8.2 km.

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First of all, thank you everyone, great comments and thoughts.

Like skooma mentioned, this is going to be a problem. They can give *panic* as a national flavor to US, but then some kind of indication has to be there so that CVs know they are entering active DFAA zone. WG can implement something like the smoke circle. DFAA active zone can be highlighted.

 

This might be too hard on the devs as the AA circle is different not only for each ship, but each player as well considering Captain skills, module upgrades and ship hulls.

It might be better to have have the pilots give an audio warning instead.  Some fun can be had in the game is to have the pilots start cursing about 'walls of flak'.  Too make the game more interesting they can go all 1960's Robin on the pilots and have them say odd curses like 'Holy Tomatoes Captain! Walls of Flak' or 'Great Balls of Fire!' and other silly phrases in Enligsh and other languages.  This would be another way for CV players to get info without having to look at the screen.  (A UI post for the hearing impaired can be done as well or just because they are (I think the cliche is) Squares. 

 

If you remove the panic for most CA , dont worry pal , a Taiho will delete you in 1 go or a full wombo combo from Lexi + will take you out of the game. Just you know I am not the top of CV captains and i can still do it on cocky battleship or IJN cruiser that forget to bring DFAA. Carriers are a class of all or nothing , removing panic will help newer and less experienced cv captain but it will be an OP buff for those that learn how to manual drop with precision.

 

I agree that if you remove the damange, CV's will just delete you anyways.  The loss of planes is really the only stick cruisers have against CVs.  I play CV every now and then, if you remove the damange and keep the panic, I'll just focus on Cruisers cause the annoy me, not because they are dangerous.

 

I belive the idea behind Chase's idea, is not to keep planes in the air, but to give the cv player a choice between saving planes and going after someone else, or making the strike and maybe get that 1 or 2 hits and lose all your planes for it.

 

An example would be a game I had against a Texas in my Zuiho.  The Texas was providing an AA bubble that I didn't dare enter, (this guy had his captain have AFT and maybe BFT too, it was not the stock 50 Texas loadout, it was close to 60!) This meant to strike at a Wyoming or the T4 BL I had to go around or wait till they got to far away. 

 

They entered our base and forced me to try and reset them on the cap cause we hadn't got into their base yet.  Luckily the British Crusier was around 5 km away from the Texas so I could try to hit him and not lose everything.  I made 2 seperate full strikes on the smoked British Cruiser and I only passed into the outer edge of aa bubble, I lost 7 planes just trying to reset the cap.  My fighter squadron that I sent to test the AA (my first none aa stock Texas) and hopefully distract the player didn't even make it to 2 K before all dying and this is with TB flying around the BL.

 

I think the Texas can offer players a nice change of pace, do I strike and have my torps and bombs go true and lose most or all my planes? or find someone else?  This I think would be a good example for DF without the panic.  High rate of plane loss to get 1 or 2 planes for a strike, (from 2 full squadrons).  This would make DF on Americans this way really unique, as they would get both the current AA damange buff and panic zone, not just the damange, "I'm a small NC AA fortress for 30 seconds!" buff.

 

Keep the comments coming please!

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Seriously though , the only time i have seen an AADF activate are those in pubstomp platoon to save their butts. It is not an OP feature but rather it makes USN dull because everyone else can do the same as them in downing planes. AADF people to use for themselves in random more than to use for the team , they save it to save their butts. That being said , circumvent these selfish red dots are quite easy.

The only problem is something like a 2 man North Carolina platoon going bow on , now that is a truly an invincible AA fortress which is kinda ridiculous. Any way my suggestion is to keep AA the same but lower individual ship AA.

Btw, have anyone successfully kill a 3 man pubstomp montana platoon :) with cv , in those kind of games i quit, so please WG do something about it.

RN Minotaur and Neptune are also the lol ship that anything but tier X carrier can touch , the combination of Hydro + smoke+ death AA aura is simply too much and any other carriers just dont stand a chance even if they are yoloing

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How about instead of making non-USN DFAA lose their panic spread completely, we just reduce it. As of the moment DFAA gives planes +300% spread if I am correct. Just gives IJN + 75% spread, USSR +125% and KM +175%. USN can retain their +300% spread

Edited by silenthunter19944

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IF panics are removed, then CV sniping will return and I'll go buy a Taiho and trash these current generation of CV scrub captains and then they'll come here in forums crying about sniping all over again, something I like. This probably will not happen. I had a better suggestion a while back on how to revamp DFAA than this crap suggestion, tbh.

 

I belive the idea behind Chase's idea, is not to keep planes in the air, but to give the cv player a choice between saving planes and going after someone else, or making the strike and maybe get that 1 or 2 hits and lose all your planes for it.

 

Losing planes in a tier 9 and 10 CV is not a problem as CVs have tons of planes on hangar to spare. As long as I delete 1 ship/run, I don't mind losing all of them(1 run worth of planes).

 

Edited by Deicide

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IF panics are removed, then CV sniping will return and I'll go buy a Taiho and trash these current generation of CV scrub captains and then they'll come here in forums crying about sniping all over again, something I like. This probably will not happen. I had a better suggestion a while back on how to revamp DFAA than this crap suggestion, tbh.

 

Yep CV sniping is a thing because well at high tier losing squads arent as painful and the setup allow you to w8 dilly dally with the current stagnant long range fire trading meta at high tier. I bet that if we make engagement at shorter range CV sniping wont be a thing because it cost too much time and the team that loose the CV to sniping will swarm all over your team. I mean to successfully snipe you need around 1 min to a mass your strike force , 2-3 min dancing on corner and 1-2 more to locate the cv if you are unlucky , 1 min to strike it. In my experience , sniping is between 7-8 min mark.So if we remove the stagnant long range meta CV will have more room to move and follow closer to the fleet , negating the snipe CV thing.

Hey anyone know which CV has the best secondaries for the lol ? , i find them all to have 6 points which are strange

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Losing planes in a tier 9 and 10 CV is not a problem as CVs have tons of planes on hangar to spare. As long as I delete 1 ship/run, I don't mind losing all of them(1 run worth of planes).

 

 

But if you lose whole squad, don't you have to wait a long time for next strike?

 

WG can reduce DFAA AA dps buff to some extent instead of removing panic. Or Plane speed could be increased in panic mode, which is very logical. Pilots must be peeing their pants.

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But if you lose whole squad, don't you have to wait a long time for next strike?

 

Yeah but please remember the game has only a 20 minute frame and in IJN case the w8 is not too long , accounting the attrition rate a Taiho and higher can basically afford 3 no return trips to sink 3 ships and a Midway will never have time to use up all 136 of his planes. A strike takes into account rearming , take off , go there and return may cost anywhere from 2-4 minutes. In a 20 minute game atmost you will at most launch 4-5 strikes for each type of strike plane. Thats why although Ssaipan reserve is only 48 it isnt handicapped against ranger or hiryu because by the time the other 2 deplete it the game has already over. This is also assuming you dont play like a bot and send stuffs over to die obviously. Honestly the only time reserve matters is when there is a heavy AA platform on the red team that must die to win the game.

Logically i think since games rarely drag on the 20 minute mark i think it is safe to assume costly attacks are not too large of a setback for the last 2 of each line cv line.

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But if you lose whole squad, don't you have to wait a long time for next strike?

 

WG can reduce DFAA AA dps buff to some extent instead of removing panic. Or Plane speed could be increased in panic mode, which is very logical. Pilots must be peeing their pants.

For my Langley, it is often quicker to delete a squadron than it is to have them return and rearm. Of course Langley has hardly any reserves so it isn't ideal, but if you really need a flight up now...

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Just in case people forget: Hangar size increases, but so does your air groups! The proportion of reserves to your full hangar capacity is actually near-constant after T6!

 

For all carriers T7 and above, the reserve ratio (without AS) is about 2, with very minor deviations. That is to say, for each squad you have, you will have 2 reserves to back it up (i.e. you can fully lose the package 2 times and have a full squad still ready). With AS, this drops to about 1.5 when averaged (it goes down to 1.4 for IJN and down to about 1.56 for USN). Note that this assumes you are using a non-stock loadout (for maximum air presence, be it strike or fighter loadouts).

 

The only exception is the Midway, with a whopping 3.5 when not considering AS. Even with AS, it drops down to 1 plane short of 3 full reserves (i.e. 2 full squads and 6/7 planes in reserve in addition to your starting full squad).

Edited by stratmania

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