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silenthunter19944

If torpedoes and CV got buffed, would the cowardice meta end or be at a lesser magnitude ?

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Lately I've been having a look at some videos of the game back when the game was about 2-6 months old and having a look at some videos I recorded back in the good old days. I've been noticing that torpedoes boats (primarily IJN DD) and CV have a rather huge influence on how aggressive players are. Some of the players in this forum will know about this. Back when IJN DD were very powerful *stares at minekaze, shimakaze* they influenced the game. Their torpedoes were very devastating to any battleship that they hit, and let's use some logic here, you have two choices, to attack a bunch of battleships sniping or two attack a bunch of battleships being aggressive and travelling in a formation with cruisers, which group will you attack, there's really no contest. Back in those day passive players must to have their eyes peeled or they will be punished heavily. In the current version of the game, you technically get rewarded for passive play because everyone is busy checking their in game currency after a battle, there's no reason to push, all of the ships notorious for punishing passive ships had been nerfed to oblivion.

CV also greatly influenced the aggressiveness of players, and I know this myself. If I was to attack a battleship or battleships in close formation with cruisers vs 1 battleships in the middle of nowhere by himself, the lone battleship can kiss his ass good bye. 

Well you may argue that I've only talked about how these 2 ship classes only punish lone ships and I haven't mentioned about how will players be aggressive.

This is when the core of World of Warships comes in. World of Warships is an objective based game, if you contest for caps you will lose, even if your team is doing a better job at killing enemy ships and your team don't cap, you will lose. Furthermore, at long range you ain't going to hit shit so the best way to be effective and win is to travel in a formation with other ships for protection and fight for the caps. 

As of the moment, passive play is rewarded because ships specialized at killing passive ships have been nerfed to oblivion which leads to passive play being more popular. Which leads to my conclusion. War Gaming may introduce as many game modes as they like, however, the single most effective method for restoring the aggressiveness in players is to restore the game back to its initial stage and ignore players that whine about getting killed by torpedoes or CV. I mean some ships were ridiculously overpowered back in the days (Minekaze, Essex, Midway) but they have gone too far with nerfing them. 

I hope that I've explained things quite well, my English skill is quite sup par and I'm sure that there are players that can explain things much better than me. 

 

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In my short time of playing I've noticed trends as well, but I digress only twice now starting a battle the map was strange, as soon as it started I was almost within range to shoot...so there was no time to see where others were going it was like starting in mid battle, it was a fun and all go battle. No idea the map but others will know

 

So make maps smaller or starting positions very close, it's either go for it or die not moving

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High Tier IJN DD is just too situational nowadays. They're pretty much useless when you play as them since you can't get a decent average damage, but very useful when you're a BB/CA since your pitiful high tier IJN DDs can zone other ships and make them show broadside for you. i rarely see any high tier IJN DD do well in a game. 

 

High Tier IJN DDs need a big buff. Even DDs from other nations do a better job at being a torpedo boat. There's just no point in playing IJN DDs in high tiers.

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Super Tester
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High Tier IJN DD is just too situational nowadays. They're pretty much useless when you play as them since you can't get a decent average damage, but very useful when you're a BB/CA since your pitiful high tier IJN DDs can zone other ships and make them show broadside for you. i rarely see any high tier IJN DD do well in a game. 

 

High Tier IJN DDs need a big buff. Even DDs from other nations do a better job at being a torpedo boat. There's just no point in playing IJN DDs in high tiers.

 

Meanwhile, gunboat kill everything

 

I shall continue padding my stats with them

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Super Tester
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High Tier IJN DD is just too situational nowadays. They're pretty much useless when you play as them since you can't get a decent average damage, but very useful when you're a BB/CA since your pitiful high tier IJN DDs can zone other ships and make them show broadside for you. i rarely see any high tier IJN DD do well in a game. 

 

High Tier IJN DDs need a big buff. Even DDs from other nations do a better job at being a torpedo boat. There's just no point in playing IJN DDs in high tiers.

 

  Can't be truer.

 

Lately I've been having a look at some videos of the game back when the game was about 2-6 months old and having a look at some videos I recorded back in the good old days. I've been noticing that torpedoes boats (primarily IJN DD) and CV have a rather huge influence on how aggressive players are. Some of the players in this forum will know about this. Back when IJN DD were very powerful *stares at minekaze, shimakaze* they influenced the game. Their torpedoes were very devastating to any battleship that they hit, and let's use some logic here, you have two choices, to attack a bunch of battleships sniping or two attack a bunch of battleships being aggressive and travelling in a formation with cruisers, which group will you attack, there's really no contest. Back in those day passive players must to have their eyes peeled or they will be punished heavily. In the current version of the game, you technically get rewarded for passive play because everyone is busy checking their in game currency after a battle, there's no reason to push, all of the ships notorious for punishing passive ships had been nerfed to oblivion.

CV also greatly influenced the aggressiveness of players, and I know this myself. If I was to attack a battleship or battleships in close formation with cruisers vs 1 battleships in the middle of nowhere by himself, the lone battleship can kiss his ass good bye. 

Well you may argue that I've only talked about how these 2 ship classes only punish lone ships and I haven't mentioned about how will players be aggressive.

This is when the core of World of Warships comes in. World of Warships is an objective based game, if you contest for caps you will lose, even if your team is doing a better job at killing enemy ships and your team don't cap, you will lose. Furthermore, at long range you ain't going to hit shit so the best way to be effective and win is to travel in a formation with other ships for protection and fight for the caps. 

As of the moment, passive play is rewarded because ships specialized at killing passive ships have been nerfed to oblivion which leads to passive play being more popular. Which leads to my conclusion. War Gaming may introduce as many game modes as they like, however, the single most effective method for restoring the aggressiveness in players is to restore the game back to its initial stage and ignore players that whine about getting killed by torpedoes or CV. I mean some ships were ridiculously overpowered back in the days (Minekaze, Essex, Midway) but they have gone too far with nerfing them. 

I hope that I've explained things quite well, my English skill is quite sup par and I'm sure that there are players that can explain things much better than me. 

 

Like Harpoon said , "Bingo". But problems occur when your "team" don't play as a team. How can I depend on a bunch of random ppl who might not even understand english?

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Alpha Tester
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Torpedoes, invisible ships launching them, and planes dropping them so one can't dodge them is what stops ME from moving forward.

 

Anyone else?.

 

And if I do, which I did in my Scharnhorst and Gneisenau for 50 battles, I died by torps in 49 of those battles, and only in 2 battles did team mates move up with me, (while staying behind).

In 0 (zero) of those battles, were any of MY teams invisible torp spamming ships (DD's), in front of me.

 

Some interesting and fun figures for you there. Try it for yourself.

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Invisible ship firing Torps are a DD's end game tactics, very frustrating of course but every class of ship has its scary ways during a battle

 

Torps from the sky is teeth gritting :) but a carrier has his fun as well

 

My BB is hard to kill, that's my fun

 

For me I find it all just goes to make a great diverse battle where everyone get there 5 minutes to shine every now and then

 

I'm not scared to of DD's, one hit from a DD out of range but I know he's close just makes me look harder for him..all more fun

 

BlackFart you're probably just to good and need to be Torped just to keep you focused :)

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Torpedoes, invisible ships launching them, and planes dropping them so one can't dodge them is what stops ME from moving forward.

 

Anyone else?.

 

And if I do, which I did in my Scharnhorst and Gneisenau for 50 battles, I died by torps in 49 of those battles, and only in 2 battles did team mates move up with me, (while staying behind).

In 0 (zero) of those battles, were any of MY teams invisible torp spamming ships (DD's), in front of me.

 

Some interesting and fun figures for you there. Try it for yourself.

 

Out of those 49 deaths

 - How many torps were devastating strikes? 

 - How many torps were from DDs?

 - How many torps were from IJN DDs?

 - How many torps were from CVs?

 

If most of them are devastating strikes, then you're doing something wrong.

 

In my recent 400 battles. I rarely get hit by torps, But when i do, they're from a CV's Torpedo Bomber.

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[ATLAS]
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I'm pretty sure back then someone said IJN Torpedo Wall strats is exactly what made them passive. I don't blame them if that is actually what makes them passive because I'm sure it's not since they said it is repair bill that makes them passive now when repair bill never change drastically. 

 

The thing about carrier is they force the game tempo, you take too long to push or gather objectives and carriers will just dominate the battlefield. Especially true back then when we can still have 2 Midway in one team and 2 TB loadout each also when strafe was still super weak. 

 

No matter how clumped you are, they can pick up people at the edge of formation, slowly whittling them down and letting their team gain advantage. Not to mention clumped up team is the best target for torpedo destroyers and back then CV had no interest in killing destroyers. So it's going to be forcing aggressiveness because of the pressence of heavy bomber carriers but at the same time rewarding passive gameplay due to long range torpedo threat.

Edited by Vio_Strygun

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Super Tester
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People people, before you always ask for CV buff, just don't dream about CV vs CV, CVs are already OP against almost every other ships in the game (only 2-3 ships are kinda immune to CV attack still killable by any CV).

 

And unlike other classes, CV strikes are most of the time just dealing with single ship.

Edited by icy_phoenix

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Torpedoes, invisible ships launching them, and planes dropping them so one can't dodge them is what stops ME from moving forward.

 

Anyone else?.

 

And if I do, which I did in my Scharnhorst and Gneisenau for 50 battles, I died by torps in 49 of those battles, and only in 2 battles did team mates move up with me, (while staying behind).

In 0 (zero) of those battles, were any of MY teams invisible torp spamming ships (DD's), in front of me.

 

Some interesting and fun figures for you there. Try it for yourself.

 

If you don't move forward and fall behind the fleet, your chance of survival is not high, you have DD leading the charge, then cruiser, then BB and CV can do a decent job of defending themselves at the back

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Super Tester
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So about CV buff

CV can drop lone BB
CV can bait DFAA and drop CA

CV can drop IJN DD
CV may have problems with gunboat but can keep gunboat spotted so gunboat cannot go for objectives

 

CV looks ok to me.  

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Super Tester
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So about CV buff

 

CV can drop lone BB

CV can bait DFAA and drop CA

CV can drop IJN DD

CV may have problems with gunboat but can keep gunboat spotted so gunboat cannot go for objectives

 

CV looks ok to me.  

 

If by "bait DFAA" you mean "lose half the package" then yes. (High tiers).

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key question is

'How to buff torpedo without encourage torpedo spam'

 

main reason of torpedo nerf is because WG expressly rejected torp spam (and without torp spam, BB can camp even more comfortable =w=)

but nerfing it also make IJNDD lose theirs characteristic how to work around these 2 problem is not easy...

 

one extreme way is...

buff torpedo to nearly OP as it is in real war, make it faster, longer range and completely invincible.

but limit it's number.

like, shimakaze can carry 60 torpedoes, mean she can launch only 4 full salvo per match. (or new system that DD can launch torp 1 by 1)

no one gonna mindlessly spam it anymore.

 

Edited by PGM991

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Done.

Jva5x5t.jpg

 

Gonna save this for future uses.

 

back to topic.

fix the economy first, most people won't push because they scared they will lose credits.

DDs wont push and scout because CAs wont cover, while CAs wont cover because BBs dont push, and BBs dont push because of DDs wont push and scout.

its a cycle.

 

I do agree tho, IJN DDs really need a buff, they're just exp pinata now

Edited by Skooma

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Out of those 49 deaths

 - How many torps were devastating strikes? 

 - How many torps were from DDs?

 - How many torps were from IJN DDs?

 - How many torps were from CVs?

 

If most of them are devastating strikes, then you're doing something wrong.

 

In my recent 400 battles. I rarely get hit by torps, But when i do, they're from a CV's Torpedo Bomber.

 

When you move towards enemy, and your Gneisenau AP is finally effective at 8kms or under on targets, you tend to have 3 ships attacking you simultaneously, (at least) as well as planes, and as stated, your team are far far behind.

In the maelstrom that is your battle at this point, torps come from left, right and in front, from DD's (often still invisible), from cruisers or even enemy BB's, and also from planes. Hell, torps drop from out of thin air, I swear.

 

If you rarely get hit by torps I suggest you aren't attempting the same tactic. Move forwards at start of battle, load AP, and don't stop, or go sideways, or retreat. Then see how many torps you get hit by (yes you can zig zag to try and dodge). See how many of the random pubbie team mates support. It's interesting.

 

Now do it in a Gneisenau.

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My experience is the same as Blackfart's and my main issue is really the invisible DDs. The main reason why I don't really push into an area is if I know there is a DD somewhere there. I wouldn't mind DD torps getting stronger but as pointed out above they have to have limited loadouts as well as no invisibility unless in smoke.  Invisible destroyers that stay invisible

1. even at short ranges (6km or less) even when it is moving while not under smoke and

2. can fire while not in smoke  

are not enjoyable experience for me.

 

Torp planes can still be manageable as they can be seen approaching and as long as people cooperate with each other to help protect each other via AA.

Edited by Wolf168

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My experience is the same as Blackfart's and my main issue is really the invisible DDs. The main reason why I don't really push into an area is if I know there is a DD somewhere there. I wouldn't mind DD torps getting stronger but as pointed out above they have to have limited loadouts as well as no invisibility unless in smoke.  Invisible destroyers that stay invisible

1. even at short ranges (6km or less) even when it is moving while not under smoke and

2. can fire while not in smoke  

are not enjoyable experience for me.

 

What I do to avoid situations like these are:

 

If I see my S/A bulb turn on when there are no ships that can detect me means there is a DD stalking me. Take a quick look at the minimap, you will see the last known position of the DD (if that DD was ever spotted). Try to guess his position at current situation, you know which DD it is, and you know his torp reload time, speed etc. You change your course and avoid torps.

 

If the DD was never visible, you can assume the last known position to be the center of their spawn, and use the time spent after spawn to predict their position. To successfully avoid torps, you need to anticipate their direction, not just "There might be torps on the way".

 

Always push the flank with at least a DD in the lead.

 

For me, invisible DDs aren't the problem, visible ones are. But I know how to deal with them in most cases.

 

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When you move towards enemy, and your Gneisenau AP is finally effective at 8kms or under on targets, you tend to have 3 ships attacking you simultaneously, (at least) as well as planes, and as stated, your team are far far behind.

In the maelstrom that is your battle at this point, torps come from left, right and in front, from DD's (often still invisible), from cruisers or even enemy BB's, and also from planes. Hell, torps drop from out of thin air, I swear.

 

If you think you're invulnerable because you're immune to citadel hits and eventually got isolated and i'm one of the BBs that are attacking you. You'll get erased in no time.

If you rarely get hit by torps I suggest you aren't attempting the same tactic. Move forwards at start of battle, load AP, and don't stop, or go sideways, or retreat. Then see how many torps you get hit by (yes you can zig zag to try and dodge). See how many of the random pubbie team mates support. It's interesting.

 

My play style is somewhat like a sneaky sniper. I hide behind islands and shoot from invisibility. I punish those who doesn't know where i am and shows their broadside.

My experience is the same as Blackfart's and my main issue is really the invisible DDs. The main reason why I don't really push into an area is if I know there is a DD somewhere there. I wouldn't mind DD torps getting stronger but as pointed out above they have to have limited loadouts as well as no invisibility unless in smoke.  Invisible destroyers that stay invisible

1. even at short ranges (6km or less) even when it is moving while not under smoke and

2. can fire while not in smoke  

are not enjoyable experience for me.

 

Torp planes can still be manageable as they can be seen approaching and as long as people cooperate with each other to help protect each other via AA.

I INVISIFIRE with my BB at +16km range. Problem? :trollface:

Edited by Loshirai14

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But let’s not confuse passive play with a genuine tactic.

The battle mode epicentre highlights this tactic, all the battleships and cruiser (on both sides) mill around the outer circle, at their maximum gun range or about 20km, firing and sniping at each other. Because if anyone moves into the centre (expect DDs) they will be focus fired on and die, rather quick too, every T10 ships is just gunning for some idiotic move like that. This tactic just continues until one side has lost their DDs battle or until one side has taken enough damage for the other team to start to push.

Epicentre mode bring all the fleets together (centre wise) but on all the other maps the same tactic is present but just spread out across the whole map, its looks like passive play but it’s not.

Let WG fix the T10 economy first and Montana bow amour and then see where T10 gameplay goes. This might get the T10 gameplay up and maybe over time the team work will return. In T10 only, without team work it should be hard for a lone player to survive.

PS, Wasn’t there jets before, which could swooping across the map and kill a lone battleship or a carrier? Where cruisers with AA builds was needed.

 

Edited by Yul_Brynner

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