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PanzerTitusFernandez

Patch 0.5.12 Soviet Tier 9 and 10 DD nerf!?!?!

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Ok..so the latest preliminary patch notes have come out...and i'm shocked....the tier 9 and 10 Russian DD's are being nerfed...their firing ranges and ROF nuked.

 

Why?

 

So here's the deal, for guys and gals who don't get what Soviet DD's are all about, here's the short and sweet version, they are one trick ponies who rely ONLY on their guns as an offensive tool, their torpedoes are more of an afterthought, even at higher tiers.

 

Why?, because their camo is poor, they have the worst camo ratings when compared to their contemporaries, hence why the only feasible way of playing the Russian DD, especially the higher tier ones that get bigger, is to use your gun range, ROF and top speed to kite enemies....that's all Russian DD's are good at, scouting and torp sniping is a big no-no, you can't hide, every other DD will out spot the Soviet DD's and you will get shot at alot with a high possibility of heading back to port with a monetary loss.

 

The RU DD's occupy a niche in the DD line, while the Americans are balanced with good torps and guns with ok-ish camo, the [content removed] have superb torps and camo but shit guns, while the Russians have superb guns and speed but terrible camo and at best mediocre torps.

 

And now WG plans to nerf the tier 9 and 10 Russian DD's by nuking the one thing that made them good, the guns...a range decrease forces the RU DD's to go in close, which shortens their life span because of it's shit camo, and all the upgrades and captains skills can only do so much. And an ROF decrease basically lengthens the RU DD's time-to-kill, making this situation worse.

 

If you run into an American destroyer in a knife fight, you're dead, the sheer Murica ROF will overwhelm you, despite your superior hit points (not that this small advantage in hit points matters much for DD's as a whole). Even now, fighting US DD's with RU DD's in a knife fight is EXTREMELY dicey.

 

The key to RU DD's, especially higher tier ones, starting from Tashkent, is to stay alive, kite the enemy, and stay alive to help the team and do damage, which becomes EXTREMELY difficult and frustrating to do if the guns (range and ROF), the one advantage that RU DD's have, is nuked to oblivion.

 

If this patch goes through..i fear the tier 9 and 10 RU DD's will be nothing more than parade boats rather than fighting ships.

 

Derogatory. Post edited, user already warned.

 

~amade

Edited by amade

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Did you look at the official reason behind the nerf?

 

 The change is needed because these destroyers cause too much frustration to play against as it requires extremely high skill to hit them at their maximum firing range, while they quite esasily deal deamage in return.

 

 

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Did you look at the official reason behind the nerf?

 

 

 

 

 

I saw that reason, as an RU DD player however, that reason is dodgy at best and bullshit at worst, RU DD's are the biggest and least agile of their kind, also...how does removing their primary, and quite frankly only advantage/niche help the guys playing the RU DD's??....especially the guys playing the high tier stuff? i.e Udaloi and Khav.

 

It's a very one sided nerf.

 

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So according to source the new range will be around 11km, you can still get near 14km with AFT. One thing you forget. "SPEED" good luck hitting a small ship that travels at 45knt + from 12km+ Not to mention the Khabarovsk has a working armor. 50mm, that's light cruiser armor. Khaba can melt battleship with their AP, you call that balans?

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So according to source the new range will be around 11km

 

Proof?..., if the gun range is balanced enough that it outranges it's contemporaries without being unfair i.e as long as the range is high  11km and very low 12km (12.1km max, since the RU DD'S depend on their gun range) then the nerf is fine and balances out the game, both the Udaloi and Khaba STILL outrange their counterparts (because Russian DD's are gunboats duh) but it isn't by much and the range difference is marginal...though it that ROF nerf is bullshit.

 

Not to mention the Khabarovsk has a working armor

 

Not anymore according to the latest patch notes....and 50mm is shit at tier 10 anyway...it's toilet paper.

 

Khaba can melt battleship with their AP, you call that balans?

 

It's not, but then again my greatest fear is that WG take the nerfs too far, and nerf the Udaloi and Khaba to the seabed and into oblivion...solving balance issues by nerfing something to the ground HARDLY works...in fact, it sometimes makes things worse.

 

Also that ROF nerf is ridiculous, seriously we need that ROF in knife fights.

 

 

 

Edited by PanzerTitusFernandez

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I saw that reason, as an RU DD player however, that reason is dodgy at best and bullshit at worst, RU DD's are the biggest and least agile of their kind, also...how does removing their primary, and quite frankly only advantage/niche help the guys playing the RU DD's??....especially the guys playing the high tier stuff? i.e Udaloi and Khav.

 

It's a very one sided nerf.

 

 

They aren't removing it, they are just toning it down.

Beside, if those ships weren't overperforming they wouldn't be on the nerf list.

Also don't forget the tier9-10 modules that can boost your Range or RoF, and BFT/AFT so the stock range/RoF is something you'll never see Udaloi/Khaba having in actual battle.

And you can't compare the range to a Gearing, tier9-10 RU DD guns are lazer compare to US rainbow pea shooter. Also don't disregard that 50mm armor because it'll save you alot of times from other DD's guns (and it can actually bounce Yamato's shell, something even BB bow armor can't do). I don't think camo is necessary since you'll spend most of the time above 10km in a RU DD anyway, unless you want to throw away your main advantage over other DD which is the shell velocity.

I don't have those ships, but these are the opinions I get upon asking youtube unicums. :hiding:

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IMO, khabarovsk and udaloi deserve the nerf. (whatever your justification, I fully support the nerf  and that wont change)

 

Its Gun range, and speed - once kited, its very hard to escape her kite 

11km, should bring it to Kiev like range, which should be managble to handle - since it still have the speed untouched - It would play same as kiev - which shouldnt be much of problem

 

Also, US DD and IJN DD - have desire to use their torps more effectifly.

so if they found, you can find them being in position closer than Typical Russian DD. which make them more suspectable to damage

 

 

Edited by humusz

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There are no better ships for kiting than Russian DDs.

 

I'm all for this nerf.

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Khaba AP pens Yamato, yep it pens it. You can get 1-3k damage per salvo even on saturated area, combined with the rof, you can take up to 20k damage in 1 minute, 50mm is tough against dd guns, considering the gearing and shimakaze only has around 19mm armor. 14km range with AFT seems fine. 4,5 seconds reload is also looks fine, RU dd are not supposed to knife fight anyway

Edited by Admiral_Turing

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11km, should bring it to Kiev like range

 

A fully upgraded Kiev has a gun range of 12.3km...having your upper tier ships being a downgrade compared to your lower tier ships is not something to look forward too.

 

Also don't forget the tier9-10 modules that can boost your Range or RoF, and BFT/AFT so the stock range/RoF is something you'll never see Udaloi/Khaba having in actual battle.

 

Are you sure that destroyers can mount these fancy modules??..i'm only at the Tashkent so don't judge me.

 

Khaba AP pens Yamato, yep it pens it. You can get 1-3k damage per salvo even on saturated area, combined with the rof, you can take up to 20k damage in 1 minute, 50mm is tough against dd guns, considering the gearing and shimakaze only has around 19mm armor. 14km range with AFT seems fine

 

Again, i need proof, in all my games as a Tashkent, i've seen more Shimakaze and the occasional Gearing as opposed to a Khaba, also you mentioned that the new range will be around 11km to 12km for the Udaloi and Khaba, do you have any links??..i need to see proof.

 

Also the armor for DD's are being nerfed, so please, the armor won't matter anymore.

 

 

Edited by PanzerTitusFernandez

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A fully upgraded Kiev has a gun range of 12.3km...having your upper tier ships being a downgrade compared to your lower tier ships is not something to look forward too.

 

She dont, Kiev dont have those 17% Range Upgrade - that Khabarovsk and Udaloi can mount

 

are everyone forget those stuff exist

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They aren't removing it, they are just toning it down.

I don't mind them toning down the Udaloi and Khaba's advantages, but they MUST still have an advantage in a gunnery duel since this is their niche, a roll they fit in well. Toning down is fine, putting an Udaloi or Khaba at the same level as it's contemporaries when it comes to gunnery is complete bullshit...because gunnery is the RU DD's..and the Udaloi and Khaba's specialty.

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Again, i need proof, in all my games as a Tashkent, i've seen more Shimakaze and the occasional Gearing as opposed to a Khaba, also you mentioned that the new range will be around 11km to 12km for the Udaloi and Khaba, do you have any links??..i need to see proof.

 

Also the armor for DD's are being nerfed, so please, the armor won't matter anymore.

Take a look at Flamu's "3x4 Khabarovsk" video. He melts an amagi there, also at iChase's armor penetration video, and many more epic Khabarovsk game, I see a consistent AP at anything broadside, at any range

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She dont, Kiev dont have those 17% Range Upgrade - that Khabarovsk and Udaloi can mount

 

 

 

are everyone forget those stuff exist

 

I think you are mistaken, a Kiev with the upgraded fire control system has a gun range of 12.3 km, as i said, having upper tier vessels which are downgrades from the lower tier vessels, especially when said downgrade is the ships advantage/niche, in this case, Russian gun range, then it's no point buying a more expensive up-tiered ship, when a lowly Kiev does everything better.

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I don't mind them toning down the Udaloi and Khaba's advantages, but they MUST still have an advantage in a gunnery duel since this is their niche, a roll they fit in well. Toning down is fine, putting an Udaloi or Khaba at the same level as it's contemporaries when it comes to gunnery is complete bullshit...because gunnery is the RU DD's..and the Udaloi and Khaba's specialty.

 

It dont mess with Rainbow Arc like US DD.

It dont mess up the Ship speed either.

 

Its Tone Down, and like you said, Its Fine

 

And why the hell you think, those Fletcher, Shima and Gearring gonna.  gun duel you at 14km++ range.

The reason for that were to Harras BB mostly - No Need to Lie aout that

 

 

I think you are mistaken, a Kiev with the upgraded fire control system has a gun range of 12.3 km, as i said, having upper tier vessels which are downgrades from the lower tier vessels, especially when said downgrade is the ships advantage/niche, in this case, Russian gun range, then it's no point buying a more expensive up-tiered ship, when a lowly Kiev does everything better.

 

Fuso - Nagato = Downgrade in range, Rate of Fire, Number of Gun

Ring a Bell

Edited by humusz

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I see a consistent AP at anything broadside, at any range

 

Then this is clearly a case of broken AP rounds...again toning down the Udaloi and Khaba's advantage is fine....however they should still have an edge against their counterparts in a gunfight, that's their specialty after all.

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I think you are mistaken, a Kiev with the upgraded fire control system has a gun range of 12.3 km, as i said, having upper tier vessels which are downgrades from the lower tier vessels, especially when said downgrade is the ships advantage/niche, in this case, Russian gun range, then it's no point buying a more expensive up-tiered ship, when a lowly Kiev does everything better.

There is a shorter main gun firing range on tier 9/10 German BB  over tier 8 German BB. not the first time WG did such a thing.

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Are you sure that destroyers can mount these fancy modules??..i'm only at the Tashkent so don't judge me.

 

 

Again proof, in all my games as a Tashkent, i've seen more Shimakaze and the occasional Gearing as opposed to a Khaba, also you mentioned that the new range will be around 11km to 12km for the Udaloi and Khaba, do you have any links??..i need to see proof.

 

 

See the bolded sentence? That's your problem.


You haven't even got the T9 and already judging them to be unplayable due to the nerf.

Tell you what, with BFT+AFT & Main Batt. Mod 3 (The reload one you'll get on T9) current Udaloi/Khaba gets 3.7sec reload.

It can put twice as many shells compared to Shima in the same time frame and only a tad slower than Gearing, but with far better shell velocity/arc/damage/fire chance.

Even after the nerf, its still practically more effective at being a gunboat than the other two DDs.

Do I also need to tell you that the upgraded Udaloi guns also had a much faster shell velocity & AP shells than the preceding guns?

 

Now tell me how does getting Witherer in 6 minutes considered to be balanced.

Also it benefits a lot from the camping meta which happens to be everyone's favorite T10 strat.

 

Proof?...as long as the range is mid to high 11km and very low 12km (since the RU DD'S depend on their gun range) for the RU DD gun range i think it's fair, it's the same range as the Gearing...though it's still gonna be hard since the Khaba has the worst camo among the tier 10 DD's.

 

Why would you need camo if you're gonna shoot all the time anyway?

The new base range is 11.2km and goes to 13.4km with AFT, its fine

Not enough? Get the range upgrade to get back the 15km range with the cost of slightly longer reload

 

Not anymore according to the latest patch notes....and 50mm is shit at tier 10 anyway...it's toilet paper.

 

You have no idea how powerful 50mm of armor against HE shells.

 

View PostPanzerTitusFernandez, on 20 September 2016 - 09:38 PM, said:

It's not, but then again my greatest fear is that WG take the nerfs too far, and nerf the Udaloi and Khaba to the seabed and into oblivion...solving balance issues by nerfing something to the ground HARDLY works...in fact, it sometimes makes things worse.

 

Also that ROF nerf is ridiculous, seriously we need that ROF in knife fights.

 

Why would you knife fights against US DDs? Stop putting yourself in a disadvantage.

Kite and dodge their rainbow shells, they can't hit reliably past 7km.

Edited by Eurobeat

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It dont mess with Rainbow Arc like US DD.

It dont mess up the Ship speed either.

 

Its Tone Down, and like you said, Its Fine

 

And why the hell you think, those Fletcher, Shima and Gearring gonna.  gun duel you at 14km++ range.

The reason for that were to Harras BB mostly - No Need to Lie aout that

 

Type clearly please, i had trouble understanding what you wrote.

 

First off, i did not lie about anything, i am only stating fact, Russian DD's, and the Udaloi and Khaba, should have an advantage in gun range over their counterparts because that's all they have...it's just that their advantage is toned down that's all.

 

For an example, Fletcher has a gun range of 12.9km with upgraded fire control system, an Udaloi should have a gun range of 12.3km to 12.5km max, which is balanced because the Udaloi does not have the US rainbow gun arc symptom.

 

Likewise the Khaba should have a gun range of 12.3km to 12.5km max, same like Udaloi....

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Type clearly please, i had trouble understanding what you wrote.

 

First off, i did not lie about anything, i am only stating fact, Russian DD's, and the Udaloi and Khaba, should have an advantage in gun range over their counterparts because that's all they have...it's just that their advantage is toned down that's all.

 

For an example, Fletcher has a gun range of 12.9km with upgraded fire control system, an Udaloi should have a gun range of 12.3km to 12.5km max, which is balanced because the Udaloi does not have the US rainbow gun arc symptom.

 

Likewise the Khaba should have a gun range of 12.3km to 12.5km max, same like Udaloi....

 

okey, lets put it this way

1. IJN DD and US BB dont wanna GUNDUEL with you at 14km range. No Sane one would. 

Advantage over contempories dont exist on your argument, because the situation wont happen.

so why, you want More range - So You can GUNDUEL with Battleship, thats will having trouble to shoot you back

 

2. There Upgrade EXIST : Gun Fire Control System Modification 2

4163c.jpg

that give you +16% to main battery maximum firing range - for a slight decrease in Rate of FIRE (it gonna give you 1.8 km Range Increase, Bringing it back to almost 13km - original range - thats stack with AFT BTW - so you can have roughly same range, just by buying them)

(Decrease of ROF, is because you cant mount those Reload upgrade btw)

 

everyone that have T9/T10 should be familiar with that UPGRADE already

IF YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR RANGE, BUY IT.

 

ITS a TONE DOWN, so stop your rant

If you cant even think a way to get around the nerf this small, Whats realy wrong with you

Edited by humusz

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You haven't even got the T9 and already judging them to be unplayable due to the nerf.

 

I admit, i am a tad biased in that respect. No comments on my part. That being said i'm just concerned, as it is i'm already having some tough times with the Tashkent, you cant blame me for worrying that my future ship sucks.

 

Also it benefits a lot from the camping meta which happens to be everyone's favorite T10 strat.

 

Which is largely due to the economy issues...a totally different matter altogether. 

 

The new base range is 11.2km and goes to 13.4km with AFT, its fine

 

Where did you get this number anyway?..the 0.5.12 notes didn't mention it.

 

Why would you knife fights against US DDs? Stop putting yourself in a disadvantage.

 

Kite and dodge their rainbow shells, they can't hit reliably past 7km.

 

You see, when the RU DD's were inttoduced, they were pegged as the ultimate gunboats, crap torpedoes, shit camo..all for one thing, to hit enemies hard at any range...thats the point, RU DD's are ultimate gunboats, you know, meant to gun down stuff at any range......with the US being the jack of all stats in DD's and the Japanese having super torpedoes and camo but shit guns....with these downgrades, i fear that there would be no reason to play a RU DD anymore.

 

But then again anything can change during testing...and since you are a good player with plenty of experience Eurobeat i'll take your words for it...i have seen your videos after all.

 

Also, i checked the WoWS site, it says there that the GFCS Modification 2 gives a 16% increase in firing range and stacks with AFT, but it doesn't say anything about a reload rate increase.

 

Edit, Personal Opinion : Is it wrong for a Russian DD fan to be worried about the state of his future ships...there is a chance that everything i learnt could be thrown down the drain.....also....even the Kiev has better range than the post-nerf Udaloi and Khaba (going by the statements you guys are giving, 11.2 max range for Udaloi and Khaba, lol the Fletcher outranges Udaloi even more).....well..i still have some money and a good Captain, time for the old girl to shine again.

 

You know what, if this nerf comes, then so be it, i'll try and adapt, in the off hand chance i don't like what they did, i can just go to another line...or go on hiatus and try something new.

 

P.s Eurobeat, a personal request from me, do a Udaloi and Khaba review after this patch comes out.

Edited by PanzerTitusFernandez

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So no one here really uses the Udaloi or Khabarovsk?

They do not have the range modules that all other T9/10 ships have.

 

Whats with WG giving all T10DDs very short gun range?

Udaloi and Khabarovsk are the only good ships and the reason to grind the painful Soviet DD line.

And its not as easy to be effective like Shimakaze torp wall spamming back in the days.

 

 

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So no one here really uses the Udaloi or Khabarovsk?

They do not have the range modules that all other T9/10 ships have.

 

Whats with WG giving all T10DDs very short gun range?

Udaloi and Khabarovsk are the only good ships and the reason to grind the painful Soviet DD line.

And its not as easy to be effective like Shimakaze torp wall spamming back in the days.

 

 

 

That's the same question i ask myself, Udaloi and Khaba were the golden pots at the end of the rainbow....tier 10 DD's with shorter range than their earlier tier counterparts....because reasons.

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