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The Admiral Hipper is undoubtedly among the best Tier VIII cruisers out there. Historically its the most advanced cruiser built by the Kriegsmarine. Yet the in-game variant falls short in two important areas -
1) Deck armor

2) Firing range

 

Deck armor: Historically the deck armor of the actual ship was supposed to vary from 20-50mm. In game, the value is 25-30mm, one reason it gets easily penned from long range salvos and hard to pen up close.
Now although designated as a heavy cruiser, even with its historic armor figures it falls short to that of light cruisers Chapayev and Kutuzov(same class). So what kind of balancing logic made the Hipper come with a weaker deck ?


Firing range: The Admiral Hipper's main battery firing range was only 3km short(33.5km) to that of the Bismarck(36.5km). Now owing to the size of the maps and game mechanics these figures have been shrunk considerably. By the ratio most ship's range has been shrunk(Bismarck/Tirpitz to 21.4km, New Orleans to 16.2km from 27.4km), Hipper's  range would round up to 19.5km which would be insanely OP for any tier 8 or even tier 9 cruiser but then again you find the Kutuzov with 19.1km firing range which suggests  the 17.7km range on the Hipper as another considerable set back. Honestly I don't think 5% buff to its firing range(makes it 18.5) can hurt much considering you already get a Kongo with over 21km range and that too in tier 5.

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Kutuzov is a premium..They even nerfed the mogami to death so it wouldn't steal kutuzov's spotlight. you still got the arcs and velocity to hit ships at 17.7 kms which is sufficient i would say.

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^ Not that I have gameplay related complains with the Hipper. If one tweaks it right, the ship can turn the tide with even HE spams, concealment boosts allow you to sit back and invisifire, up close the armor  shines and you have torpedoes up your sleeve to fall back on. 

BUT...

Edited by Aniket_Sengupta

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I can't comment about the deck armor but I think increased range won't do the hipper any good.

 

From my experience playing the Hipper, Roon and Hindenburg, their shells are light, so it loses a lot of speed and penetration power at longer range. Because of that reason, sniping is not recommended as you will lose a lot of DPS. Unless you spam HE a lot, which is of course, not recommended in any german CA.

 

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I can't comment about the deck armor but I think increased range won't do the hipper any good.

 

From my experience playing the Hipper, Roon and Hindenburg, their shells are light, so it loses a lot of speed and penetration power at longer range. Because of that reason, sniping is not recommended as you will lose a lot of DPS. Unless you spam HE a lot, which is of course, not recommended in any german CA.

 

  So if the range increase isn't a big deal on the Hipper does it not make more sense to have a 5% range buff make it more historically accurate ? Also the the Kutuzov will still reign supreme at 19.1km  :D 

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  So if the range increase isn't a big deal on the Hipper does it not make more sense to have a 5% range buff make it more historically accurate ? Also the the Kutuzov will still reign supreme at 19.1km  :D 

 

Well, personally I think it does not. Because if you end up not using it then what's the point increasing it? It will only encourage sniping habit to less experienced players imo.

 

As for kutuzov, I can guarantee you that players who keep shooting from 19 km in her will have subpar performance at best. Kutuzov's effective range is around 11-15 km, so she did not need that much range in the first place. So rather than buffing the hipper, I would rather nerf the kutuzov.

 

But then again, this is ultimately just my opinion. I wouldn't complain if they do increase the range in the end. :3

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up close the armor  shines

 

BUT...

 

They have good armor? I thought germans have paper armor. This ones from long range.

 

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Well, personally I think it does not. Because if you end up not using it then what's the point increasing it? It will only encourage sniping habit to less experienced players imo.

 

As for kutuzov, I can guarantee you that players who keep shooting from 19 km in her will have subpar performance at best. Kutuzov's effective range is around 11-15 km, so she did not need that much range in the first place. So rather than buffing the hipper, I would rather nerf the kutuzov.

 

But then again, this is ultimately just my opinion. I wouldn't complain if they do increase the range in the end. :3

 

Well so far I've played the Hipper it can easily pen myokos and atagos at 16km range. Before i got the range upgrade I actually citadel-d a myoko at max range. If you insist me to clarify my gameplay, well i don't have a typical playstyle with the Hipper. My playstyle varies with the type of maps, tier of opponents, type of ships that I have to encounter. Brawling, hunting, sniping I do it all. Which literally means I don't hold back if the enemy is a BB or a DD which is why I have the Hipper's HE vulnerability covered with demolition expert. 

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Super Tester
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Kutuzov is a premium..They even nerfed the mogami to death so it wouldn't steal kutuzov's spotlight. you still got the arcs and velocity to hit ships at 17.7 kms which is sufficient i would say.

I think 155mm Mogami is still deadly? :(

Edited by R3negade

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Just made some calculations with the mogami's 8 inch shells. Couldn't find much historical details about the 6 inch ones. However the 8 inch guns also needs to have range increase up to 17km. I guess just because the New Orleans has such weak range historically, wargaming for obvious reasons didn't want to give advantage to its Japanese counterpart. :ohmy: 

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I think cruisers overall need some love. Even before the KM BB line came out, WG indicated that BBs and DDs made up over 70% of ships played, with cruisers coming a distant 3rd at around 24%. No need to say anything about the endangered species that are CVs in this game. I think that only the tier 10 CAs hold their weight. Along with the few OP premium CAs.  :hiding:

 

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They need to balance all the ships okay... Just because you love it doesn't mean it has to be OP

Also it already has the best range out of all the non premium cruisers in tier 8 (unless Chapayev is longer I forgot) and it has the best AP, the same AP as the Roon and Hindernberg. It has less armour but more HP and great guns, so I don't know what you are complaining about. If you want full historical accuracy then I can argue that all my USN ships will have radar constantly active and I can get Phalax systems and guided missiles on the Iowa

 

Or

 

You can git gud at dodging shells and choosing the right target to shoot

Edited by FenrirApalis

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I think 155mm Mogami is still deadly? :(

 

It still is..15 nippon shells coming in at a ship is a scary moment especially for DD players :trollface:

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They need to balance all the ships okay... Just because you love it doesn't mean it has to be OP

Also it already has the best range out of all the non premium cruisers in tier 8 (unless Chapayev is longer I forgot) and it has the best AP, the same AP as the Roon and Hindernberg. It has less armour but more HP and great guns, so I don't know what you are complaining about. If you want full historical accuracy then I can argue that all my USN ships will have radar constantly active and I can get Phalax systems and guided missiles on the Iowa

 

Lol did I ever say other ships don't need to be balanced ? Its just I currently have only the Hipper in tier VIII, most probably would have made a thread on the Mogami too if I had played it. And yes I do want "full historical accuracy", however the missiles and CIWS you're talking about are of Cold War era. Missiles incorporated to Iowa after 1960 and CIWS after 1980. This is a World War II era game. These missiles use the secret Nazi V1 missile technologies anyway :D

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Lol did I ever say other ships don't need to be balanced ? Its just I currently have only the Hipper in tier VIII, most probably would have made a thread on the Mogami too if I had played it. And yes I do want "full historical accuracy", however the missiles and CIWS you're talking about are of Cold War era. Missiles incorporated to Iowa after 1960 and CIWS after 1980. This is a World War II era game. These missiles use the secret Nazi V1 missile technologies anyway :D

 

I think what others and me are trying to say is "balance" reasons..Even gneisenau historically was fitted with 3X3 283mm guns but in game we see the 380mm variant. The range is already the best of tier 8 (except premium kutuzov).

 

Plus nerfing or buffing a ship ultimately comes down to the dev team depending on how the ship is actually performing in the game.

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True.. :(  Guess the deck armor is over performing :teethhappy:

 

plunging fire barely happens anyways... If you are being plunged then you would have been shot at from extreme ranges... Unless you are talking about DB but you are a cruiser and shouldn't be troubled by them much

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Lol did I ever say other ships don't need to be balanced ? Its just I currently have only the Hipper in tier VIII, most probably would have made a thread on the Mogami too if I had played it. And yes I do want "full historical accuracy", however the missiles and CIWS you're talking about are of Cold War era. Missiles incorporated to Iowa after 1960 and CIWS after 1980. This is a World War II era game. These missiles use the secret Nazi V1 missile technologies anyway :D

 

Full historical accuracy. Atago OP AA when Yamato AA refit when IJN DD gun refit when... Maybe we can have a hardcore mode with full historical accuracy lol

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plunging fire barely happens anyways... If you are being plunged then you would have been shot at from extreme ranges... Unless you are talking about DB but you are a cruiser and shouldn't be troubled by them much

 

The Hipper's waterline has been corrected lately. Just like this makes its citadels harder to target in close combat, almost all long range shots overpen the thin deck like cheese before entering the citadels.

 

Full historical accuracy. Atago OP AA when Yamato AA refit when IJN DD gun refit when... Maybe we can have a hardcore mode with full historical accuracy lol

 

Joke as you may but considering the AA advantage the RN cruisers are about to come with, Atago's AA buff will not be earth shattering(also considering Hipper already received a C-hull for AA). Atago also lacks the range in game. On the contrary Atago carries much more armor than it historically possessed. Regarding Yamato, well GK beats its AA by miles. Trust me it will be fun with historical accuracy.

 

Edited by Aniket_Sengupta

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"Historical accuracy"

 

Let's remove all the paper ships in the game~

 

Seriously.

 

That should no longer be an explanation/excuse for anything- Unless of course it's that game made by certain foreigners.

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Just because the term means nothing for paper ships, doesn't justify the inaccuracies w.r.t actual infamous historic ships. I mean you can have both historic ships exactly like they were as well as new paper ships. That is to say both are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Edited by Aniket_Sengupta

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Historical aiming accuracy would be such a hoot! Imagine BBs puttering around for 20 minutes hitting only about 2% of their shells. That would be hilarious! Haha!  :teethhappy:

 

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@Bunda369

Since the shorter battle areas forced the game to shrink actual main battery ranges by almost 50% and with secondary batteries by almost 70%, gun dispersion figures get better accordingly. Just saying. :unsure:

Edited by Aniket_Sengupta

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Just because the term means nothing for paper ships, doesn't justify the inaccuracies w.r.t actual infamous historic ships. I mean you can have both historic ships exactly like they were as well as new paper ships. That is to say both are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

 

Yes, clearly, USN BBs, having the best gun-laying and optics should be the most accurate BBs in the game.

Clearly, because 25mm guns are horribly ineffective for shooting down anything, they are nothing but decorations in-game.

Clearly, because we're gunning for historical accuracy, USN FT should always use advanced aerial tactics against IJN FT and would always come out as a win.

Clearly, because HE fire from DD shells do nothing to battleships, they should be rendered obsolete.

Historically, secondaries can fire longer than just 5km and should have the same range as a Cleveland-class.

Historically, torpedoes rarely go faster than 55kt and should be blown up from nearby shells.

Historically, torpedoes can never be detected by planes.

Historically, all the reload times should be way longer while training all targets in a maneuvering ship at 30kt is nigh-impossible.

Historically, once fires have spread, the ship is no longer capable of combat.

Historically, executing tight turns at full speed is a great way to capsize your ship.

 

Found some info:

Real 1 Knot = 0.5144444444 Meters per Second

Real 1 Knot = 1.852 Kilometers per Hour

In-Game 1 Knot = 2.572222222 Meters Per second

In-Game 1 Knot = 9.26 Kilometers per Hour

 

Ship scaling: Ships are 3-4 times larger than real life. The only realistic performance would be their turning radius- Which, if you were to look at it, would be a joke.

 

The list goes on.

 

You can't just cherry-pick the details you want if you want to remain historically accurate.

 

Things are made that way for the sake of balance- While they somewhat adhere to real-life rules, the game is not bound to them.

 

Armor thickness is undoubtedly one of the things they purposely move around. Many ships have less-than-accurate schemes for the sake of balance.

 

So please, don't use 'historical accuracy' as an excuse- This is not a simulator. It is a bona fide game loosely based on historical documents.

Edited by Stein_Grenadier

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