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GfTwR

suggestion: USN 5"/38 secondary buff

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As title said, i suggest a buff for USN secondary gun.

At current state 5"/38 is just a bad secondary, with RoF of just 10 RPM and lowest DPM of BB at tiers. In real life, 5"/38 was good at rapid fire. Shouldn't the RoF of secondary version also be 15 RPM like real life? Don't worry most of the ship get 5"/38 secondary at tier VIII+, exclude that tier-VIII-monster disguises as tier VI.  And if possible, I thought that 5"/38 should be more accurate too because these guns fired under FCS, so it would make sense if 5"/38 was more accurate than other secondary (just a little) rather than being drunk like current state. What do you guys think?

 

Moved to suggestions.

~dead_man_walking

Edited by dead_man_walking

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MAX SECONDARY BROADSIDE DPM

1 - Amagi: 330,000

2 - Bismarck and Tirpitz: 267,868

3 - North Carolina: 180,000

Yes... very balance...

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Beta Tester
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if either wg plans to implement this, surely the dispersion of usn secondary will increase. but surely ill love to see usn ship's secondary fire like DADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADA!!!! 

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MAX SECONDARY BROADSIDE DPM

1 - Amagi: 330,000

2 - Bismarck and Tirpitz: 267,868

3 - North Carolina: 180,000

 

Yes... very balance...

why is amagi a BB great at snipping has better Secondary DMP than bismarck who's a dedicated close quarter battleship?

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if either wg plans to implement this, surely the dispersion of usn secondary will increase. but surely ill love to see usn ship's secondary fire like DADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADA!!!! 

 

Even with 15 RPM, Showboat would only have 27000 DPM with 2 km shorter range than Bismarck, and 6000 less DPM than Amagi, which is ridiculous because NC suppose to beat Amagi at close range. So 5km accurate rapid fire makes sense for me.

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Super Tester
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And if possible, I thought that 5"/38 should be more accurate too because these guns fired under FCS

 

I believe all secondary guns' accuracy should be more increased as well, because most guns are fired under FCS as well! :hiding:
Edited by Mingfang47

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Alpha Tester
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I believe all secondary guns' accuracy should be more increased as well, because most guns are fired under FCS as well! :hiding:

 

Not, technically.

 

Aiming and firing on most secondary guns in most nations navy in WWII are still done in the gun, by the gun crews themselves. The director only issue order to aim at specific direction, but did not aim by itself.

 

For 5"/38 Mk.12 on Showboat, as well as on most American ships, the only job the gun crews has to do is keep loading shells into the gun. Aiming and firing are done by directors (not sure if it was done by the directors or by CIC).

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MAX SECONDARY BROADSIDE DPM

1 - Amagi: 330,000

2 - Bismarck and Tirpitz: 267,868

3 - North Carolina: 180,000

 

Yes... very balance...

 

Amagi has a great potential for secondary damage- Except that its armor isn't too well-off.

NoCar has extremely reliable AA and face-tank armor in exchange for worse secondaries.

Tirpitz has great armor, secondaries in between USN and IJN, but lower caliber main batteries. Though since this is premium, the properties of the vanilla ship used for reference will be different.

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Amagi has a great potential for secondary damage- Except that its armor isn't too well-off.

NoCar has extremely reliable AA and face-tank armor in exchange for worse secondaries.

Tirpitz has great armor, secondaries in between USN and IJN, but lower caliber main batteries. Though since this is premium, the properties of the vanilla ship used for reference will be different.

 

Not to tell that you're wrong, but I'll give you some number from my calculation for some new perspective, hope that you won't count this as an offend.

 

Amagi

  14 cm/50 3rd Year Type

  RoF: 6-10

  Broadside amount: 8

  AP shell weight: Type 2 AP- 38 kg

  Total mass/minute: 1824-3040 kg

  12 cm/45 10th Year Type

  RoF: 10-11

  Broadside amount: 2

  HE shell weight: Common Type 0 HE- 20.3 kg

  Total mass/minute: 406-446.6 kg

Total mass/minute: 2230-3486.6 kg/minute

 

North Carolina

  5"/38 Mark 12

  RoF: 15-22

  Broadside amount: 10

  HE shell weight: Common Mark 32- 24.5 kg

  Total mass/minute: 3672-5390 kg/minute

Total mass/minute: 3672-5390 kg/minute

 

source: navweaps

 

as you can see, in real life North Carolina, even with lowest RoF she can outmatch Amagi's best in secondary fight, thanks to AP HE mechanic in game that's impossible, but my point is the real NC had good dual purpose secondary and these gun actually did their job well (ask Kirishima). I don't know why WG chose to give 5"/38 just 10 RPM when that thing should be at least 15, which was really standard for 5"/38 that some ship like USS Johnston DD-557 can do 22 RPM but that's not the case for NC. Instead they just give 10 RPM to the gun that good at rapid firing. For me, that's not sound like balance, just ridiculous.

 

Edit 1: Changing name of 140mm gun's ammo 

Edited by GfTwR

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Not to tell that you're wrong, but I'll give you some number from my calculation for some new perspective, hope that you won't count this as an offend.

 

Amagi

  14 cm/50 3rd Year Type

  RoF: 6-10

  Broadside amount: 8

  AP shell weight: Common Type 2 HE- 38 kg

  Total mass/minute: 1824-3040 kg

  12 cm/45 10th Year Type

  RoF: 10-11

  Broadside amount: 2

  HE shell weight: Common Type 0 HE- 20.3 kg

  Total mass/minute: 406-446.6 kg

Total mass/minute: 2230-3486.6 kg/minute

 

North Carolina

  5"/38 Mark 12

  RoF: 15-22

  Broadside amount: 10

  HE shell weight: Common Mark 32- 24.5 kg

  Total mass/minute: 3672-5390 kg/minute

Total mass/minute: 3672-5390 kg/minute

 

source: navweaps

 

as you can see, in real life North Carolina, even with lowest RoF she can outmatch Amagi's best in secondary fight, thanks to AP HE mechanic in game that's impossible, but my point is the real NC had good dual purpose secondary and these gun actually did their job well (ask Kirishima). I don't know why WG chose to give 5"/38 just 10 RPM when that thing should be at least 15, which was really standard for 5"/38 that some ship like USS Johnston DD-557 can do 22 RPM but that's not the case for NC. Instead they just give 10 RPM to the gun that good at rapid firing. For me, that's not sound like balance, just ridiculous.

 

Admirable job doing research-

 

Although some aspects of real life cannot be replicated in-game for the sake of gameplay.

 

That would mean that USN BBs would be far more accurate in-game thanks to superior gunnery technology- In-game, it's the opposite. IJN BBs are more accurate.

IJN AA batteries are all manually-targeted, making them immensely inaccurate and highly-dependent on the skill of the gun crew, making them next-to-useless.

etc.

 

In WG's games, national trees fill a niche, regardless of historical equivalent- With fictional ships added in order to fill out the gaps. The USN already has an established niche; Any further buffs in tasks outside this niche would make another tree objectively inferior in-game, leaving no reason for players to choose them.

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So IJN have more accurate gun at long range and also have the best Secondary for brawling, not to mention more HP to withstand fire and HE linear damage. Did I mention better torpedo protection yet? Oh yes most of the time they are faster, while USN have good useless stat like AA. If CV player gonna attack, he/she will do it anyway. I wouldn't be bought by just 1 good but almost meaningless stat, while the other line beat you in everything like this. And armor means almost nothing in this game but larger HP pool does, thanks to HE and fire. 

 

If you believe in your statement, USN is now next-to-useless line now while IJN is the got it all line. (And if the German got accuracy module, USN will become even more useless)

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So IJN have more accurate gun at long range and also have the best Secondary for brawling, not to mention more HP to withstand fire and HE linear damage. Did I mention better torpedo protection yet? Oh yes most of the time they are faster, while USN have good useless stat like AA. If CV player gonna attack, he/she will do it anyway. I wouldn't be bought by just 1 good but almost meaningless stat, while the other line beat you in everything like this. And armor means almost nothing in this game but larger HP pool does, thanks to HE and fire. 

 

If you believe in your statement, USN is now next-to-useless line now while IJN is the got it all line. (And if the German got accuracy module, USN will become even more useless)

Well at least the Colorado wasn't Bad

Iowa....seems ok, but the Mk 32 Secondaries needs more rate of fire

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So IJN have more accurate gun at long range and also have the best Secondary for brawling, not to mention more HP to withstand fire and HE linear damage. Did I mention better torpedo protection yet? Oh yes most of the time they are faster, while USN have good useless stat like AA. If CV player gonna attack, he/she will do it anyway. I wouldn't be bought by just 1 good but almost meaningless stat, while the other line beat you in everything like this. And armor means almost nothing in this game but larger HP pool does, thanks to HE and fire. 

 

If you believe in your statement, USN is now next-to-useless line now while IJN is the got it all line. (And if the German got accuracy module, USN will become even more useless)

 

I'm no USN expert, but if they were truly inferior, they wouldn't be competitively close in server performance.

 

Comparisons for 8, 9 and 10.

 

In all the the links shown above, the USN battleship consistently shows superior performance in experience, and in tier 9, Iowa is far superior to Izumo in all server stats. At tier 10, Yamato outdamages Montana due to its 460mm cannons, however, is still superior in terms of exp gain. Winrate is also superior for T9-10 USN BBs compared to their IJN counterparts.

 

Now, why would exp matter when average damage is concerned?

 

Exp from damaging ships is proportional to the percentage of damage dealt to an enemy ship: Doing 10k damage to a destroyer would yield far more experience than dealing 10k damage to a battleship. Considering the IJN mindset of sniping at long distance, what targets would be easily accessible and has difficulty dodging? Battleships. This would imply that USN BBs in our server go into close range to ensure hits on targets such as cruisers. Higher exp gain also translates to performing better for the team; Defending caps, capping points, etc.

 

Exp also translates to credit gain. You base exp dictates how much credits you gain.

 

---

 

USN BBs also have superior armor layouts that stubbornly eat AP shells from other BBs so long as it doesn't broadside. They also have superior concealment, as well as AA. IJN armor layouts are terrible. Having to use their secondaries is a risk, in fact, it can be better considered a last resort. The difference in HP is barely noticeable after Colorado, too.

 

---

 

And before you mention Colorado's(See ship comparison in link) vulnerability to fire, USN BBs have a damage-control party that lasts for 20 seconds (20s incap immunity) vs IJN's 10s and a reduced fire damage value (Datamined value, forgot the link). T7 Nagato's armor is comparable to the T5 USN New York's.

 

---

 

Now dear sir, please tell me why you wish to buff something that doesn't need a buff.

 

Historical accuracy?

Edited by Stein_Grenadier

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This is Asia server, right? Then I will assume that most of the time the new player will start with the IJN line. Which is safe to assume that the first time they play the IJN line they will have less experience than when they play the USN line. Now let's turning the table around and look at the place where people will play USN first then IJN, the NA server. (Also I won't count Tirpitz because she's a premium that anyone can buy)

at NA server NC have more battle than Amagi, and safe to assume that her damage is a lot lower because her captains still have less skill, compare to the one in Amagi (which pretty much will be their second line to grind after finish USN). But at Asia server, even with only half of battle of Amagi, NC still has less damage output. Unlike NA server, I don't think that most of the NC's captain are new to tier VIII battle as Amagi's. 

Now let's check Colorado at NA (BTW Colorado didn't have 5"/38, exclude Wee Vee, which is kind of off the topic but I gonna do it anyway). 5000 different in damage between Colorado and Nagato. And according to my assumption, NA Colorado will perform worse because captain's lag of experience but at Asia, it should be reverse at Asia, right? Well, Colorado still have less damage.

And you even said it yourself that XP might come from other source like defending caps, capping points, but those thing doesn't have anything to do with ship's performance. Any ship can cap and def anyway.

In case of Iowa and Izumo, I assume that's it's because the tier X. At IJN line, Yamato is more than enough reason to quickly finish Izumo and never look back, while the USN, you have Montana that have to fight with the lolpen machine, so lots of experience people go back to Iowa and prey that they won't fight Yamato. 

Also, getting closer to the front line means you would take more hit from everything, translate to higher repair cost, while the IJN BB can sit back at the range that cruiser can't hit you back which translate to the lower repair cost. Now if some ship manage to sneak into the secondary range of IJN, it would be hurt so bad, but for USN, nah... as long as her guns wasn't on your side you don't have to care.

For DamCon team, 20 second immunity actually didn't help much, in fact it will just save you one more salvo from a CA, it didn't even help you finish your reload. 

Now, with useless under-performed secondary, what is the point of USN to getting close but still can't be a sniper. Like I said, even with 15RPM NC will only have 270,000 DPM, same level as Bismarck with less range, and no torpedo like Tirpitz, and 60,000 DPM behind Amagi. I don't see any problem with that, it's not like I can control them anyway, but extra damage and reward for being a spearhead for team is always nice. You should try to be a spearhead and only rely your gun while other BB's secondary start ripping you apart, it's not rewarding at all. BTW I got average damage of 61,000 in my NC, and I know what I am doing. I just want a better reward for doing my job.

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This is Asia server, right? Then I will assume that most of the time the new player will start with the IJN line. Which is safe to assume that the first time they play the IJN line they will have less experience than when they play the USN line. Now let's turning the table around and look at the place where people will play USN first then IJN, the NA server. (Also I won't count Tirpitz because she's a premium that anyone can buy)

 

at NA server NC have more battle than Amagi, and safe to assume that her damage is a lot lower because her captains still have less skill, compare to the one in Amagi (which pretty much will be their second line to grind after finish USN). But at Asia server, even with only half of battle of Amagi, NC still has less damage output. Unlike NA server, I don't think that most of the NC's captain are new to tier VIII battle as Amagi's. 

 

Now, under the assumption that the IJN line is often picked because this is the Asian server, and that newer players bring the average score down, could it also be said that the situation in EU and NA is the same? That because they have a greater total number of battles played in a USN ship, it would contain newer players without much experience? Looking at the number of battles played on USN battleships compared to IJN ships in EU and NA, under your logic, it would have botched their stats, which appear lower in server average compared to IJN.

 

And you even said it yourself that XP might come from other source like defending caps, capping points, but those thing doesn't have anything to do with ship's performance. Any ship can cap and def anyway.

 

You're looking solely at damage as a source of performance. I'm not going to bother repeating my statement about experience, but please consider that a destroyer can be awarded 2k experience and only deal 10k damage, while a battleship shooting at other battleships would only receive 1k exp for doing over 70k damage. Damage, while an indicator of performance vs other ships, is not an indicator of a player's capabilities with the ship.

 

In case of Iowa and Izumo, I assume that's it's because the tier X. At IJN line, Yamato is more than enough reason to quickly finish Izumo and never look back, while the USN, you have Montana that have to fight with the lolpen machine, so lots of experience people go back to Iowa and prey that they won't fight Yamato. 

 

Implying that Izumo is inferior and painful to grind. I don't think anyone has ever complained about Iowa this way. Would this not make Izumo an "Inferior" ship to her USN counterpart, Iowa? Would her inferiority, despite her superior secondaries not be enough proof?

 

Also, getting closer to the front line means you would take more hit from everything, translate to higher repair cost, while the IJN BB can sit back at the range that cruiser can't hit you back which translate to the lower repair cost. Now if some ship manage to sneak into the secondary range of IJN, it would be hurt so bad, but for USN, nah... as long as her guns wasn't on your side you don't have to care.

 

Except that while designed to be capable of short-range brawling, it is also very capable of sniping at 18km+ away. At the same time, secondaries aren't a wunderwaffe. Even a dedicated secondaries build isn't reliable for destroying ships- They would still need a minute or two unless the ship is heavily damaged. You can blame the dispersion values.

 

For DamCon team, 20 second immunity actually didn't help much, in fact it will just save you one more salvo from a CA, it didn't even help you finish your reload. 

 

USN DCP is objectively superior to IJN's because of the immunity period. You're no longer comparing BBs.

 

Now, with useless under-performed secondary, what is the point of USN to getting close but still can't be a sniper. Like I said, even with 15RPM NC will only have 270,000 DPM, same level as Bismarck with less range, and no torpedo like Tirpitz, and 60,000 DPM behind Amagi. I don't see any problem with that, it's not like I can control them anyway, but extra damage and reward for being a spearhead for team is always nice. You should try to be a spearhead and only rely your gun while other BB's secondary start ripping you apart, it's not rewarding at all. BTW I got average damage of 61,000 in my NC, and I know what I am doing. I just want a better reward for doing my job.

 

Except that BB secondaries aren't very reliable in the first place.

 

BBs fighting BBs with only secondaries? That'll take a long time. USN ships already have superior armor, why would it also need better secondaries?

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Except that BB secondaries aren't very reliable in the first place.

 

BBs fighting BBs with only secondaries? That'll take a long time. USN ships already have superior armor, why would it also need better secondaries?

 

Superior armor? Bro do you really play this game? Or at least do you play IJN BB and fire USN BB in real battle?

 

If you have ever do, I'm doubt that why you call USN ships have "superior armor".

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Except that BB secondaries aren't very reliable in the first place.

 

BBs fighting BBs with only secondaries? That'll take a long time. USN ships already have superior armor, why would it also need better secondaries?

 

If you said that, there is no reason to stop USN from getting the history accurate RoF, right?

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If you said that, there is no reason to stop USN from getting the history accurate RoF, right?

 

Thick armor + Secondaries

Thinner Armor + Best Secondaries

 

Isn't there already a nice balance?

 

The USN BBs receive thick armor in exchange for lower secondary dps

The IJN BBs have numerous secondaries in exchange for worse armor

 

Superior armor? Bro do you really play this game? Or at least do you play IJN BB and fire USN BB in real battle?

 

If you have ever do, I'm doubt that why you call USN ships have "superior armor".

 

I specifically said 'Armor layout'

 

More turrets = More ammo rooms = Bigger Citadel

 

Of course, the legendary Yamato has the best armor thickness. Although oddly, even if the Izumo possessed superior armor, it was inferior to Iowa in all the servers. This might be because the entire area below the turrets are citadels, this combined with the citadel in the midship and stern makes for a larger target. Less turrets mean less citadel area, higher engine output usually translates to a larger power plant (citadel)

 

Yamato

Gun Casemate 25 mm
Citadel 80 - 410 mm
Armored Deck 18 - 200 mm
Forward and After Ends 32 mm

Montana

Gun Casemate 38 mm
Citadel 110 - 409 mm
Armored Deck 19 - 150 mm
Forward and After Ends 32 mm

Izumo

Gun Casemate 21 mm
Citadel 76 - 356 mm
Armored Deck 21 - 127 mm
Forward and After Ends 32 - 305 mm

Iowa

Gun Casemate 38 mm
Citadel 58 - 307 mm
Armored Deck 16 - 152 mm
Forward and After Ends 32 mm

Amagi

Gun Casemate 19 - 30 mm
Citadel 76 - 254 mm
Armored Deck 22 - 95 mm
Forward and After Ends 32 - 229 mm

North Carolina

Gun Casemate 25 mm
Citadel 50 - 305 mm
Armored Deck 19 - 140 mm
Forward and After Ends 32 mm

Nagato

Gun Casemate 25 - 229 mm
Citadel 51 - 305 mm
Armored Deck 25 - 70 mm
Forward and After Ends 25 mm

Colorado

Gun Casemate 13 - 25 mm
Citadel 45 - 343 mm
Armored Deck 13 - 89 mm
Forward and After Ends 25 mm
 

 

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Alpha Tester
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At point blank range, with 16" gun and above, armor barely make a difference anymore. Armor advantage may protect Showboat at range while she close in on target, but at optimal engagement range, She can be penetrated as easy as penetrating her enemy. It's a matter of who get the firing window first.

Which mean Showboat barely have advantage over Amagi at close range, because Amagi get bonus damage from her secondary, which spray out nearly twice the damage Showboat's secondary can spray.

 

At range, Amagi got advantage due to speed and better shell trajectory, which is huge advantage.

So tell me again how this is a balance? And why should it be equal at close range when Amagi got significant advantage at long range?

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Some things cannot be implemented. If WG follows the history. Then yamato have 46km range iirc.

 

IJN DD torps supposed to have "Stealthier" torps than Steam USN torps.. 

 

Many more.. Almost all USN dd have radar. Put them in.. Every usn dd must have radar cause historically, they have radar. 

 

Wouldnt it be unbalanced if radar were there? Plus.. USN DD is jack of all trades (t9-10). 

 

All depends on player if cqc , if NC do it right. Can delete amagi easily. If amagi do it right, NC may be deleted as well.. Plus. Amagi is a paper ship. I even citadel it with zao 18km away. (*have video though on fb)

Edited by Safiuddin97

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heck iowa supposed to have 33km range on it's main guns, 14km on the secondaries, of course WG wont implement them, in game iowa has 27km max range + module, secondaries a paltry 7km..... and has drunk crew on em

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