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Kleiss

Radar

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your opinions, from 0.5.5 to now. keep it civil.

Edited by Kleiss

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Pretty situational, tbh. Any radar ship trying to get in range to spot DDs is going to be visible and subject to a storm of fire. Only really superior when destroyers are unsupported or used against a poorly coordinated team.

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Pretty situational, tbh. Any radar ship trying to get in range to spot DDs is going to be visible and subject to a storm of fire. Only really superior when destroyers are unsupported or used against a poorly coordinated team.

 

Syanda pretty much nailed it. Support & coordination from random team? I doubt it. :(

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Alpha Tester
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Use it against IJN DD under 10 km that desperate of using high speed torpedo instead the long range one

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Pretty situational, tbh. Any radar ship trying to get in range to spot DDs is going to be visible and subject to a storm of fire. Only really superior when destroyers are unsupported or used against a poorly coordinated team.

Agreed. I have been caught out in such situations, unsupported and got the crap shot out of me, thanks to radar

Use it against IJN DD under 10 km that desperate of using high speed torpedo instead the long range one

IJN DD have been nerfed too much recently.... just my POV

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As a independent action radar kinda "meh". usually you not gonna pick-off any DD in the duration (except Des Moines with40s lol)

 

But as a Div combine tactical purpose this consumable really useful imagine 2 Moskva combine their radar, is 50s of death at 11km with well coordinate action you can pick of any DD + this can spotting any incoming DDs when needed which provide a tactical information for div and result in proper action :P 

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Syanda pretty much nailed it. Support & coordination from random team? I doubt it. :(

 

not when your chapayev has CE:trollface: you can wreck any DD within your 11.7km radar range gap, provided if you're a marksmen with your guns :hmm:

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30s is too short to kill  full health DD's in a CA with slow firing 8" guns, possibly useful in the Russian Cruisers with their rapid 6" guns, so I run the catapult fighter on my New Orleans as it lasts longer and has a shorter cooldown.

 

Also the 30s duration requires you team to be able to finish off that pesky DD, which in random battles is hard enough as it is given the lack of coordination

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not when your chapayev has CE:trollface: you can wreck any DD within your 11.7km radar range gap, provided if you're a marksmen with your guns :hmm:

 

In Soviet Russia, Chappy wrecks you. :teethhappy:

 

On a side note, won't the Moskva be even better at this? Her shells are so fast. 

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It's pretty rough.  Just knowing an enemy cruiser with radar is there makes it very dangerous to go within their radar range.  If I get illuminated then even if they don't kill me then I will lose a ton of health regardless of how effective I am at dodging.  If I am in my preferred US DD's and on low health I am much less effective, since my most effective playstyle is to bully enemy DD's out of caps, and that requires health.  If I can't do that I'm stuck stealth capping, spotting and stealth torping, and that means my team is much less likely to win since I can't effectively counter the enemy DD's.

 

I honestly think it's an unneeded mechanic.  Cruisers simply do not require it, as is shown by the fact that most cruisers don't actually have it.  A cruiser should support their destroyers as they make contact with enemy DD's.  If your teams DD's lose the DD battle, then your team is now at a disadvantage.  Cruisers can still push up, they are quite capable of dodging torps and the enemy DD's can only harass and fall back. If they unstealth they open themselves up to highly effective fire from the cruisers.  All of this play and counterplay is nullified by radar which requires little skill to use effectively.  It was also brought in to combat torp boats, where it mainly hinders close range gunboats (coincidentally the main counter to torp boats).

 

The torp boat issue that radar was introduced to solve is actually made worse by radar, but has been fixed by significantly reducing the range of high tier torpedoes (see this thread for my suggestions on fixing torp boats by reducing the torp range).  Yet the radar mechanic is still in the game.

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I'll let you know what I think of radar now. It has no place in the game.

 

Would you give someone a consumable that provides an aimbot effect for a short duration? There is literally 0 skill to this crap. Yeah sure it worked in real life but as WG said this is an arcade game - concealment is a destroyer's niche. First they nerf the torpedoes to hell, now dds have to get up close. And when they do that they get punished just by the enemy clicking a single button.

 

It's a short duration, but have you experienced it on the receiving end? The effect is extremely devastating and usually ends up in a dead dd. No one wants to go near caps anymore, save for the fletcher, gearing and shima. Even I am reluctant the moment i see a DM or Moskva on the other team - it's just suicidal, all they have to do is press a button every few minutes and you're guaranteed dead.

 

TLDR; this trash needs to be removed from the game, period.

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I'll let you know what I think of radar now. It has no place in the game.

 

Would you give someone a consumable that provides an aimbot effect for a short duration? There is literally 0 skill to this crap. Yeah sure it worked in real life but as WG said this is an arcade game - concealment is a destroyer's niche. First they nerf the torpedoes to hell, now dds have to get up close. And when they do that they get punished just by the enemy clicking a single button.

 

It's a short duration, but have you experienced it on the receiving end? The effect is extremely devastating and usually ends up in a dead dd. No one wants to go near caps anymore, save for the fletcher, gearing and shima. Even I am reluctant the moment i see a DM or Moskva on the other team - it's just suicidal, all they have to do is press a button every few minutes and you're guaranteed dead.

 

TLDR; this trash needs to be removed from the game, period.

 

Couldn't agree more - where is the depth of play involved in this mechanic? It's poorly designed, and should be removed.

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I'm sorry but with all due respect, I disagree that Radar should be removed. I'm been solely a CA player and occasionally BB player, and frankly I failed to play DD well. Before the introduction of radar, and extending the range of sonar, without CV help/DD help CAs are sitting ducks to enemy DDs. Stealth firing, stealth torps, and been denied of assess of an area/path when you know a DD is lurking there but no way of spotting it. It's not easy to dodge torpedoes that suddenly pop out from nowhere, and very difficult to find the culprit of stealth firing as DD generally has higher speed than CAs, making CAs inefective in countering DDs. And I had a very very  though time in supporting my teeam BBs when there's no CV supporting, and when the number of enemy DD is more than my team. there was almost no way to counter enemy DD using CA, until WG introduce radar and buff the range of sonar a little.

 

 In fact, Until now I still quite regularly seen a lot of DD players do very well most of the time. Don't forget, Radar has very short duration and long cool down. sonar? even more situational as the range is under 6km. Unless the situation is right, most of the time it has become a temporary "vigilance" skill for spotting incoming torps when in dangerous area :P 

 

Thhough we think that it should be a scissor rock paper realtionship among each ship types, But in WOWs, we can see that it is not absolutely true, and each ship types should not become immune to certain ships.

 

PS: I might be bias, as I can't play DD well (tried very hard :(), it's solely based on my experience I have for playing a substantial amount of battles as CA captain. I never used a ship with radar before, but a lot of times what i saw it's not really effective in exposing enemy DDs until someone can nail them. 

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Radar might not be useful as it sounds in Public match making

but it is one hell of the radar if used tactically such in Team battle and upcoming Clan Battle to the point that WG might want to  "Tune" it up before implent the Clan Battle

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I'm sorry but with all due respect, I disagree that Radar should be removed. I'm been solely a CA player and occasionally BB player, and frankly I failed to play DD well. Before the introduction of radar, and extending the range of sonar, without CV help/DD help CAs are sitting ducks to enemy DDs. Stealth firing, stealth torps, and been denied of assess of an area/path when you know a DD is lurking there but no way of spotting it. It's not easy to dodge torpedoes that suddenly pop out from nowhere, and very difficult to find the culprit of stealth firing as DD generally has higher speed than CAs, making CAs inefective in countering DDs. And I had a very very  though time in supporting my teeam BBs when there's no CV supporting, and when the number of enemy DD is more than my team. there was almost no way to counter enemy DD using CA, until WG introduce radar and buff the range of sonar a little.

 

 In fact, Until now I still quite regularly seen a lot of DD players do very well most of the time. Don't forget, Radar has very short duration and long cool down. sonar? even more situational as the range is under 6km. Unless the situation is right, most of the time it has become a temporary "vigilance" skill for spotting incoming torps when in dangerous area :P 

 

Thhough we think that it should be a scissor rock paper realtionship among each ship types, But in WOWs, we can see that it is not absolutely true, and each ship types should not become immune to certain ships.

 

PS: I might be bias, as I can't play DD well (tried very hard :(), it's solely based on my experience I have for playing a substantial amount of battles as CA captain. I never used a ship with radar before, but a lot of times what i saw it's not really effective in exposing enemy DDs until someone can nail them. 

 

I am sorry, but you need to experience it on the receiving end first, as a dd of any nation. Until then, I will strongly disagree with your statement. I play all surface ships roughly equally, I have tested radar extensively in the public test, and it is a joke.

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Frankly, I disagree with your disagreement.

 

Radar in this game is not tied to fire control. There's no aimbot about it. It simply reveals every ship within your inmediate vicinity, and its effectiveness is purely based on the battle situation. It's devastatingly effective against lone, stalker DDs sailing solo, but pretty worthless if a DD has any cruiser or battleship support.

 

Which means its actually stronger in random battles where you're less likely to see coordination, but based on reviews and experiences from the informal EU/NA clan battles circuit, radar cruisers are nowhere near unfair, and actually a bit inferior to play compared to, say, sonar, which actually has the added benefit of spotting torpedoes. Because any radar cruiser HAS to be within detection range of a DD for the radar to have an effect, and any suppory for that DD will be homing in on the cruisers. 

 

I've played quite a few games in DDs and radar ships, together with testing out radar on PT. Radar is no bigger an issue as sonar was.

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Which means its actually stronger in random battles where you're less likely to see coordination, but based on reviews and experiences from the informal EU/NA clan battles circuit, radar cruisers are nowhere near unfair, and actually a bit inferior to play compared to, say, sonar, which actually has the added benefit of spotting torpedoes. Because any radar cruiser HAS to be within detection range of a DD for the radar to have an effect, and any suppory for that DD will be homing in on the cruisers

 

 

 

I support a bit: When ever I see a cruiser which potentially has a radar on it getting near a cap where my allied DD is capping, most of the time I will try to chase them away by focus firing on them, though it may give away my position to enemy BBs. 

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This is my opinion only, based on what I've experienced and seen in battles since open beta started, and I've been on both ends of radar. I'm ignoring the "rock - paper - scissors" thing too, as it's definitely not a hard rule in this game, more of a mild suggestion from my experience (hell I've hunted dd's in my bb many a time to turn a match when the rest of the team failed to do so). Sorry if it gets a little long winded and rambling at times. It also mainly focus on the IJN dd's as this is where it seems MOST (though not all) of the complaints are coming from.


 

I think one of the main issue is with how used to easy mode people got to playing IJN dd's. As long as you didn't too anything too silly or get ambushed by a couple of good players working as a team or had a *rarely seen" decent cv player on the other team (and I MEAN decent, not just a cv as we all know most of them are hardly worth having on the team, myself included a lot of the time), you'd likely never even be spotted in a match. As such you could sit off and spam torps and get some hits for no risk ("no risk" being the major play style on this server, even though the passive play appears on all servers). Their detection was such that it was mainly only other IJN dd's they might be detected by, with the US and more recently Russian ones being spotted in time to do something about it, and the other IJN dd would usually turn and run too (everyone remember the mantra "it's an IJN dd, can't use the guns, must run!!!"). And even if you were detected, you could just pop smoke and sit there in the smoke and torp out of it anyway as most times people would run from the IJN dd, even when it wasn't supported.


 

Additionally, a LOT of dd's massively overextend and don't really play a team game. They don't look at where the team is and instead race out on their own trying to torp the cv or bb's in the back of the enemy fleet. Before radar, and with the points above about cv's, this was fine more often than not and allowed big scores, then they could enhance them further by cleaning up the caps from mid/late game.


 

You can always tell in an online game what's the easiest character/class to play by the proportion of that one to all the rest, and by far the biggest for a long time has been DD's in general, and IJN dd's in particular (who doesn't see at least 1 match a day with 10 or more dd's in it, and 7 to 8 is usually the average, particularly on higher tier, with most if not all being IJN). This might be starting to drop, albeit slightly, since the high tier IJN long range torp nerf (long overdue), but it's still there (at least the dd numbers, though the IJN bias is reducing to about 50% of all dd's seen rather than 99% it used to be).


 

When things are so easy, bad habits form and people suddenly become upset when what was so easy suddenly becomes slightly challenging, which is what I'm seeing with the combination of radar and the IJN torp change. Now instead of being nearly immune, they have to get closer to their detection range before firing torps (but still well outside it actually for IJN), or in the non IJN case, getting right on the edge of detection before popping smoke and starting invisi firing in a gunboat dd, they have to actually look at what ships are around and decide if any might have radar and plan accordingly (deliberately open fire at the edge of it's range then stop and turn to drop detection, trying to trick them into popping it early for example before moving in while it's on cool down, or choosing a different approach/target, or actually looking where your team is and plan accordingly so your actually supported instead of being alone and overextended). Additionally, the old, easy mode counter of popping smoke and sitting still in it (or close to it), won't always work any more, so you actually have to change speed and direction to dodge (shock/horror!!!).


 

This means that DD's have to actually play as part of the team now and work with them instead of being the loner they used to be. cap with support or run when you see someone coming (or actually use our guns and kill them if it's only another dd), don't overextend too far from your team and instead screen them from enemy dd's and torps.


 

Radar is not the super weapon some people make it out to be. It doesn't assist with aiming at all (where one of the previous posters got that from I've no idea), that's still up to each players skill individually (with some RNG thrown in). It also doesn't last all that long, and once used it's on a LONG cool down. This mean's that you can't spam it out and be immune to dd's. It instead means that you should only use it when you're 99% sure there's a dd in the detection range and you have several ships ready to take shots at it to hopefully sink it before the radar runs out. It's not radars issue if the dd in question is sitting stopped in a smoke screen 6 to 8km away from several enemy cruisers, that's bad play on the dd's part (half my radar dd kills have been this, and only a couple of those were actually while the dd was trying to cap).


 

Additionally, people have gotten better at hitting dd's (I'm surprised I've never been accused of aim botting by a dd. I've got a knack for hitting dd's at long ranges, even when they're manoeuvring while I have more trouble hitting cruisers and bb's these days. go figure).


 

All in all I still personally think dd's (and IJN dd's in particular) are the most powerful class in game at the moment, as when I see cv's I find they're usually not very good. What people forget about dd's is it's NOT the torps and high damage that make them so powerful, it's not even the capping (though that comes in close, particularly late game when you need someone to react quickly to a distant cap), it's the spotting of the enemy team and keeping them spotted. This is what allows the dd's team to see where the enemy is and what they're doing and plan accordingly, while also stopping damaged ships from stopping firing and disappearing from sight to regroup/heal, plus giving advanced warning of enemy torps incoming. That role isn't as glamorous as sinking a BB at the back of the fleet that's trying to snipe, but goes a LONG way towards winning for the team, and guess what, it's a role that's not really impacted by radar!

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This is my opinion only, based on what I've experienced and seen in battles since open beta started, and I've been on both ends of radar. I'm ignoring the "rock - paper - scissors" thing too, as it's definitely not a hard rule in this game, more of a mild suggestion from my experience (hell I've hunted dd's in my bb many a time to turn a match when the rest of the team failed to do so). Sorry if it gets a little long winded and rambling at times. It also mainly focus on the IJN dd's as this is where it seems MOST (though not all) of the complaints are coming from.

 

 

I think one of the main issue is with how used to easy mode people got to playing IJN dd's. As long as you didn't too anything too silly or get ambushed by a couple of good players working as a team or had a *rarely seen" decent cv player on the other team (and I MEAN decent, not just a cv as we all know most of them are hardly worth having on the team, myself included a lot of the time), you'd likely never even be spotted in a match. As such you could sit off and spam torps and get some hits for no risk ("no risk" being the major play style on this server, even though the passive play appears on all servers). Their detection was such that it was mainly only other IJN dd's they might be detected by, with the US and more recently Russian ones being spotted in time to do something about it, and the other IJN dd would usually turn and run too (everyone remember the mantra "it's an IJN dd, can't use the guns, must run!!!"). And even if you were detected, you could just pop smoke and sit there in the smoke and torp out of it anyway as most times people would run from the IJN dd, even when it wasn't supported.

 

 

Additionally, a LOT of dd's massively overextend and don't really play a team game. They don't look at where the team is and instead race out on their own trying to torp the cv or bb's in the back of the enemy fleet. Before radar, and with the points above about cv's, this was fine more often than not and allowed big scores, then they could enhance them further by cleaning up the caps from mid/late game.

 

 

You can always tell in an online game what's the easiest character/class to play by the proportion of that one to all the rest, and by far the biggest for a long time has been DD's in general, and IJN dd's in particular (who doesn't see at least 1 match a day with 10 or more dd's in it, and 7 to 8 is usually the average, particularly on higher tier, with most if not all being IJN). This might be starting to drop, albeit slightly, since the high tier IJN long range torp nerf (long overdue), but it's still there (at least the dd numbers, though the IJN bias is reducing to about 50% of all dd's seen rather than 99% it used to be).

 

 

When things are so easy, bad habits form and people suddenly become upset when what was so easy suddenly becomes slightly challenging, which is what I'm seeing with the combination of radar and the IJN torp change. Now instead of being nearly immune, they have to get closer to their detection range before firing torps (but still well outside it actually for IJN), or in the non IJN case, getting right on the edge of detection before popping smoke and starting invisi firing in a gunboat dd, they have to actually look at what ships are around and decide if any might have radar and plan accordingly (deliberately open fire at the edge of it's range then stop and turn to drop detection, trying to trick them into popping it early for example before moving in while it's on cool down, or choosing a different approach/target, or actually looking where your team is and plan accordingly so your actually supported instead of being alone and overextended). Additionally, the old, easy mode counter of popping smoke and sitting still in it (or close to it), won't always work any more, so you actually have to change speed and direction to dodge (shock/horror!!!).

 

 

This means that DD's have to actually play as part of the team now and work with them instead of being the loner they used to be. cap with support or run when you see someone coming (or actually use our guns and kill them if it's only another dd), don't overextend too far from your team and instead screen them from enemy dd's and torps.

 

 

Radar is not the super weapon some people make it out to be. It doesn't assist with aiming at all (where one of the previous posters got that from I've no idea), that's still up to each players skill individually (with some RNG thrown in). It also doesn't last all that long, and once used it's on a LONG cool down. This mean's that you can't spam it out and be immune to dd's. It instead means that you should only use it when you're 99% sure there's a dd in the detection range and you have several ships ready to take shots at it to hopefully sink it before the radar runs out. It's not radars issue if the dd in question is sitting stopped in a smoke screen 6 to 8km away from several enemy cruisers, that's bad play on the dd's part (half my radar dd kills have been this, and only a couple of those were actually while the dd was trying to cap).

 

 

Additionally, people have gotten better at hitting dd's (I'm surprised I've never been accused of aim botting by a dd. I've got a knack for hitting dd's at long ranges, even when they're manoeuvring while I have more trouble hitting cruisers and bb's these days. go figure).

 

 

All in all I still personally think dd's (and IJN dd's in particular) are the most powerful class in game at the moment, as when I see cv's I find they're usually not very good. What people forget about dd's is it's NOT the torps and high damage that make them so powerful, it's not even the capping (though that comes in close, particularly late game when you need someone to react quickly to a distant cap), it's the spotting of the enemy team and keeping them spotted. This is what allows the dd's team to see where the enemy is and what they're doing and plan accordingly, while also stopping damaged ships from stopping firing and disappearing from sight to regroup/heal, plus giving advanced warning of enemy torps incoming. That role isn't as glamorous as sinking a BB at the back of the fleet that's trying to snipe, but goes a LONG way towards winning for the team, and guess what, it's a role that's not really impacted by radar!

 

being spotted = accuracy boost on lock on.

And we ijn dds overextend because that's the only way we can get hits in. Long range torps just don't cut it anymore. Even the 10km ones are easily avoidable. F3 is by far the best so far at 8km.

Edited by Kleiss

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being spotted = accuracy boost on lock on.

And we ijn dds overextend because that's the only way we can get hits in. Long range torps just don't cut it anymore. Even the 10km ones are easily avoidable. F3 is by far the best so far at 8km.

 

 

umm, being spotted means that the enemy doesn't have to blind fire any more. if they can't see anyone, how are they supposed to shoot anyone, just blindly fire torps or guns and hope for a hit?????? I think you need to review your logic on that statement.

 

 

As for the torps, yes, they're no longer super easy mode and now have some challenge to them, you can't just spam and expect to score the odd hit for heaps of damage, you need to think it out (like predicting where they'll turn to a dd sighting and shooting your torps there instead of where they're currently going, then deliberately showing yourself (at max range) to make them turn INTO the torps instead of having them miss, or expecting that they'll change direction/speed and planning accordingly when shooting them). No, it's not "candy from a baby" easy like it used to be, but it's not impossible either, and that's even with radar (after all it's not up all the time, and as I said there are ways to make them waste it, you just need to start thinking of new ways to play).

Edited by Bacca49

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As for the torps, yes, they're no longer super easy mode and now have some challenge to them, you can't just spam and expect to score the odd hit for heaps of damage, you need to think it out (like predicting where they'll turn to a dd sighting and shooting your torps there instead of where they're currently going, then deliberately showing yourself (at max range) to make them turn INTO the torps instead of having them miss, or expecting that they'll change direction/speed and planning accordingly when shooting them). No, it's not "candy from a baby" easy like it used to be, but it's not impossible either, and that's even with radar (after all it's not up all the time, and as I said there are ways to make them waste it, you just need to start thinking of new ways to play).

 

nah

the real problem is, if Playing HE spamming cruiser (or destroyer) to damage a big bad Battleship is much easier, why bother play IJN DD?

even Gearing's and Flecher's Torpedoes have noticeable advantages such as harder to detect, while still have good guns to fight other DDs

You can point that Kagerou and Shima have also good guns, but non of them as good as other nation counterpart

 

and now kagerou and Shimakaze Statistics when downhill to the bottom

Shimakaze Based on statistics:

Exp: 11th out of 11

Avg Damage: 9th of 11

Win Rate: 10th of 11

To be noted, her target is BB with a lot of HP, while her counter part can counter other DD with low HP so her avg damage here in the statistic is quite horrible

 

it is not making " but it's not impossible either" but make it beyond hard

 

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nah

the real problem is, if Playing HE spamming cruiser (or destroyer) to damage a big bad Battleship is much easier, why bother play IJN DD?

even Gearing's and Flecher's Torpedoes have noticeable advantages such as harder to detect, while still have good guns to fight other DDs

You can point that Kagerou and Shima have also good guns, but non of them as good as other nation counterpart

 

and now kagerou and Shimakaze Statistics when downhill to the bottom

Shimakaze Based on statistics:

Exp: 11th out of 11

Avg Damage: 9th of 11

Win Rate: 10th of 11

To be noted, her target is BB with a lot of HP, while her counter part can counter other DD with low HP so her avg damage here in the statistic is quite horrible

 

it is not making " but it's not impossible either" but make it beyond hard

 

 

 

 

 

To an extent you've made one of the points I was trying to make (albeit I probably did it badly). yes there has been a sudden drop in their rankings, because the playstyle has changed from the super easy mode it was, and people are still trying to play it like it was before and failing hard, or else are still working out what the new one should be (in my opinion a more aggressive torpedo boat that can still stealth launch but has to get in closer to do it and plan ahead accordingly like on the lower/mid tiers, which actually suits my playstyle to tell the truth as I'm a very aggressive player). Will it remain where it is now in the rankings, I doubt it (at least on most servers), but only time will tell (give it another few months to even out).

 

 

Also, I feel that the statement of her target being "BB with a lot of HP" is part of the problem as it's the mindset that everyone get's indoctrinated into when they start out (this rock-paper-scissors ranking that isn't as hard a rule as people try to make out) and it then influences how they play, making the recent changes have more impact than they should have. ANY enemy ship is her target, you just have to use different tactics for each and think things through more in advance depending on the target. Will it always work, no, but then it shouldn't be 100% success anyway (which it should be on a hard rock-paper-scissors setup).

 

 

Keep in mind this is from a very aggressive player, which is NOT what is the norm for this server, and that also I feel is part of the problem. Because of the very passive mentality on the server, when particular ships suddenly change from being tailor made for that playstyle (Shima was the poster child for it for example, sit way back with no chance of being spotted and lob torps into an area half the map away with a  good chance of multiple hits, so no need to move up) to requiring being played in a more aggressive fashion, it'll cause a lot of disquiet and a LONG adjustment period. Most of the radar complaints only started after these torp changes were made, so there definitely seems to be a correlation between the changes and adapting to a new playstyle rather than issues with radar itself being OP (if anything I'd like it to get a little shorter cooldown, maybe 75% or so of what it is now, and that's from someone who plays dd's as well as cruisers and BB's).

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Alpha Tester
6,604 posts
2,477 battles

It hurts my eyes every time someone make a very long paragraph of a boring topic, more than once


 

Edited by Harpoon01

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