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Retia

Issues With High Tier Battles

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Super Tester
2,500 posts
1,535 battles

 

Greetings fellow captains,

 

for quite some time now (Actually since Alpha) I've never really gotten warm with higher tiers in WoWS.

The most enjoyment I have in WoWS is around tier III to VI.

I do own a Tirpitz (tier VIII) and a few tier VII ships, but I honestly don't feel like playing them too much.

In fact, I'd rather set sails on a tier IV or V ship than a tier VI, but I've never quite gotten to the point where I fully understood why that is.

 

I've put together a few theories to answer my self-imposed question.

 

It all begins with a seemingly basic and easily identified issue of mine, firing range.

Around tier V the firing ranges for ships suddenly make huge leaps, battleships gain the ability to open

fire at ranges that mostly cover the whole map and cruisers don't have to get too much closer either.

 

And these numbers don't stop, as the progression to higher tiers occurs the maximum firing range also increases.

At first glance that's a decent idea, higher tiers equals stronger and more modern warships with the technology behind them to support long range engagements.

It makes sense that a Yamato can fire far further than a Kawachi.

 

However this brings up a completely different issue.

Higher firing range translates into maps needing to be bigger and islands or other props have to be placed less frequently,

since you'd otherwise be back to square one where everyone just fights at knife fighting distance due to being stuck inside a maze of islands.

 

So already you've now got large maps that have large open parts of water with very focused island groups that amount to pretty much nothing much

in terms of cover, be it from enemy fire or enemy spotting.

 

And that wouldn't be too bad if another issue raised from the high firing range wouldn't interfere with this, too.

The issue is that you simply can't get closer to enemies.

Ideally you'd want to open up on long range, grab as many hits as you can and soften your target, then finish it at close range.

However that's not viable, atleast not when the enemy team is playing halfway decently.

Getting close to one enemy automatically means entering the firing range of one-third to half the enemy team.

 

So now you find yourself in a situation where attacking isn't really a great idea unless you got the people behind you to support it.

What's the end result of it?

Players stay at mid/long range, firing salvo after salvo and those that haven't learned how to dodge enemy fire or angle their armor

will prolly die sooner rather than later.

 

Adding to this comes the way ship movement works.

A person can turn on a dime, a car doesn't need much either, but a ship needs time and space to turn around.

Hence once you're committed to a course, especially when trying to close in on an enemy, then you're committed.

There's no driving around the corner of a hill, spotting six tanks and going "Nope.png!".

 

There aren't any "panic buttons" either. (Atleast not on all ships)

Sure a battleship (and high tier cruisers) can withstand some punishment and regenrate health,

however at the end of the day even if a battleship survives a turning maneuver to get out of a nasty situation,

it'll likely pay for it with a large number of lost hitpoints.

 

Destroyers on the other hand can pop their smoke, turn considerably quickly and get the cake out of most situations.

Which is probably why I enjoy playing destroyers the most.

Cruisers on the other hand are likely screwed, especially before tier VIII where they can't regenerate their health.

 

And this, again, punishes aggressive playstyles.

Is it still possible to play aggressively and do well? Of course it is, playing aggressively is a core requirement to

deny the enemy area, and that translates into more options for the player and his team.

 

The problem though is, that it's extremely difficult to play aggressively when so many game mechanics counteract your efforts.

 

These issues are lowered or completely removed in lower tiers.

A tier V Kongou can fire it's first salvo pretty much from one spawn point to the other, but her accuracy is unlikely to grant her more than 2-3 hits

and it's just opening salvoes... the Kongou will still have to move closer, because the map design on lower tiers supports mid to short range combat rather than fire fights at 18km range.

 

At the same time despite the maps being smaller the ships can somewhat steadily attack without

fearing salvoes being lobbed over mountains from outside their own firing range.

 

This among other things makes the battles feel much more intense for me.

High tier battles feel like a slow waltz while low tier battles are a speedy, upbeat melody.

 

And that's what's breaking them for me.

In WoT high tier battles are just as fast paced as low tier ones outside of the few people that don't want their "precious" to be "hurt".

They require more knowledge and experience to properly execute maneuvers that improve one's survivability, but none of these take

anything away from the arcady pace the game has set for itself.

... unless you're playing a T95, I guess.

 

WoWS high tier battles are just way too slow, and I'm not refering to the basic truth that naval combat is slower than tank combat.

In WoWS, atleast from my point of view, any of the high tier ships I've played since alpha felt like playing the Maus tank in WoT.

Constantly busy fine tuning my angle, taking shots of opportunity and where it hurts most while keeping the enemy just far enough away from me.

 

It's interesting for a short while, but quickly kills my motivation to play more.

 

As for a solution... I don't really have one.

Atleast none that wouldn't require major overhauls of core game mechanics like firing range or complete remakes of maps.

Things that we know haven't really been an interest of the WoWS team so far. (*Cough* CV gameplay overhaul when? *cough*)

 

So, at this point I doubt that we'll see any major changes and I might be writing about this more for the sake of discussion rather than

in hopes for actually witnessing changes, however I still find it a topic worth posting.

 

See ya on the SEAs,

Retia

 

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After tier 8-10 repair cost reduction for NA. A use ask if people play style change. I remember that the answer is generally no.

I guess.. I guess that probably the long range you mention, and the fact that mistake mean death-that result in everyone being cautious.

T be fair our asia server also deem more passive, at least what I heard.

 

BTW my answer after read half of your op.

 

is

 

Play CV :trollface:

 

People don't push mean more bombing runs. As long as you

don't get snipe

Enemy pack up in an AA ball.

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1,230 posts
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Totally Agree with you .

High tier battle is just painful.

My profile only shows I have highest is tier 8 but trust me, I have experience of high tier battles.

God [content removed] it, high tier battles gives me a headache instead of fun.

Yamatos sit sinpe at long range and citadels everything while destroyers pop torpedoes - for fun

At least sea of torpedoes's lesser since the recent torpedo buff.

But [content removed] high tier battle, like Retia said, goes way to slow, it causes headaches.

Yes, at high tiers you need skills, you have better ships, high commander skills and blah blah blah that's better and on the contary your enemy has got that too, seeing that if you are in the same tier, you are quite, suffice to say, near each other in ship capabilities (Don't mind the playstyle, I mean overall).

Which means:

Longer gun range- people will just sit at the back, sniping

More HP - There's more destructive gun to counter, and also, the high tier captains have skills to angle and use their armour effectively, ~blah blah blah~, which will

                  make people try to conserve HP, and with tier gun range, will stay in the back, and noone really wants to push because they don't wanna get "First                           Blodded"

More destructive guns: All the same- better gun- better range - better camping at the back - better HP conservation - longer alive - higher winning odds - boring                         and salt builds up -> severe headache -> total loss of fun -> Total loss of SANITY

They are still "More", "Better" categories as you get in higher tier (EX: Higher torpedo damage blah blah blah)

To cap them all, yes, high tier battle makes people think more, consider their movements, using armaments effectively which is a good thing, BUT [content removed] as you get those things, the flaw comes to view. - Like formentioned above - camping, saltyness and less support - which drains fun from higher tier battles.

Battle goes slow, it gets boring and blah blah blah - which makes what I'm about to type loop back again - high tier battles - pretty boring and no fun. 

Yes, yes, if you say it will make you have more patience, sharpen your brain and lah, lah lah, you'd be right. In fact, you will be absolutely right.

And yes, I can't say game's sole purpose is for fun, because You always need to think. And sometimes games can help you.

But mostly (I might be wrong, but it is, as it's me) We play for fun.

And fun doesn't comes from trying to lead attack and get rekted (Forgive me, but it's in many cases)

The fun doesn't comes from trying to tell your team to stop camping

The fun doesn't comes from camping at the back and shooting all the time

This is an "Action style" game (Forgive me if I'm wrong) but as it says, you'd better be in the middle of and action rather than camping. (I know some peeps like sniping, but sniping doesn't means hang around spawn at all times)

And there's balance - CVs gameplay turns to straff and so on.

High tier will make you think more -Yes

But it comes at a cost - it's boring

That's my point

The solution?

I don't know 

I know it's hard, to make ships go on high tier and stay at same range, same HP, same armament. Play in same map. That's more boring, I know

Lemme think for a day, or more.

That's my point, and I stand by agreeing with Retia

 

Thanks for reading the wall of text

Conky

P.S. ALL HAIL VADIM:trollface:

 

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Yes... We have issues... 4 consecutive lost. I'm(edited) done...

 

1st time post since CBT because i can't take this anymore. So much [content removed] in tier X

 

*grumble mode on*

 

Profanity.  Post edited. User warned.

~dead_man_walking

 

Post Edited - Dead missed a bit

~lengxv6

Edited by lengxv6

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Super Tester
3,842 posts
4,140 battles

I had a really strong desire to own tier ten tanks in wot as they were the pinnacle of the game. I've sat at tier 5/6 and never really bothered to go further. There's no real need to own them. I have often said my biggest beef with the game is that it is not as dynamic ad tanks and I can see it being worse the higher you go

Edited by RalphTheTheatreCat

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Alpha Tester
802 posts
2,945 battles

I have raised this issue several times in other posts.

Even though I have most of the tier 10 tanks, I still came with the mentality I need a tier 10 ship, as fast as possible.

 

I now have 2 tier 10 ships, and I have played maybe 5 battles in each ship, and I haven't used either of them for 3-4 weeks, not once.

The "earnings" are usually in the negative, you need to be a 65% wr player to stay in the green, (rough estimate), ON THOSE tier 10 SHIPS.

 

And since I bought the Atlanta, I just hang around tier 6-9, and don't see too many tier 9 battles, all praise be to rngesus.

 

I have a Tirpitz, but never use it, because the AP with small calibre compared to IJN and USn bb's is too ineffective vs a tier 10 YAMATO, or MONTANA which I seem to see a lot of, not to mention another 20 or so ships it engages. Also the Tirpitz AA is "highly questionable", especially when I see a tier 9 or 10 enemy cv in a battle, who sees the Tirpitz and gobbles up the fat xp with little effort, meaning the BB now has to try keep pace with a random players cruiser, to stay safe from the planes. And it is seriously out ranged yet easily spotted in tier 10 battles, even by cruisers and DD's. (Have you tried hitting a Kharbarovsk at 15kms with your Tirpitz, while dodging Shimakaze torpedoes and planes at the same time?). A Yamato will hit you at the start of the battle, and you can't see it...

 

I put that down to, the mm having to fill the tier 10 battles due to low numbers of tier 10 players, so my tier 8 premium ships get dragged into the tier 10 battles, a lot. How these people manage to keep playing, or even want to keep playing tier 10, is beyond me.

 

Four years ago I made mention in WoT that if a premium tank is to see tier 10 tanks, the "balancing" of the vehicle should be compensated some 50% towards it being able to combat a tier 10 enemy.

WG appear to focus on keeping the premium tanks/ ships only equally capable or slightly less capable than a fully upgraded "free" vehicle of the same tier, which approximates out to roughly 25% capable vs a tier 10. Or in the case of a panther 88 for example, 10% capable vs a tier 10, up to 15% capable when firing gold ammunition. "free to players" TEARS are REAL.

I do however find WoWS more lenient to tier matchup balancing than WoT. For example a tier 6 IJN dd in a fail platoon tier 10 battle, can still do a lot of torpedo damage. Perhaps this is by accident due to the games infancy.

 

- What I have learnt from WoWS is, forget tier 10, cost to play too high, and I have flags and premium account.

- Let premium account expire, the bonuses and lack of desire to play tier 10 make premium time uneconomic, and at 20 minute battles I can only average 1-2 battles weeknights and 5-10 weekends.

- If I want to gamble a tier 10 battle, I'll just play my premium tier 8's, and at least make some credits and xp.

- Tier 7 is a lot of fun for me, I don't take enjoyment from "seal clubbing" below that, however might run a tier 5 ship if there is a mission on.

 

 

 

 

 

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Beta Tester
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5,169 battles

i hardly notice it when i'm playing as dd but when i play my atago i notice that no one wanted to move forward, i'm an aggressive player so i always tried to move forward but i always got focus. lots of high tier cruiser and bb just camping near the base, specially at that new mountain map. i really hate that new map.

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Super Tester
1,296 posts
9,726 battles

Guys, i have a solution to your money problems at tier 10.

 

Get a Khabarovsk

 

Why?

1. Because its the cheapest tier 10 to maintain, and can still carry the team if needed. Think of it as a Russian tier 10 Medium tank (cheap, powerful, and well armored, in the sense of tanks anyway)

 

2. The captain level can start at tier 4 skill with AFT even without CE. Also, its the fastest (48.5 kts with sierra mike and engine boost) and has the most numerous rail guns to play with, so beware of your mouse buttons :trollface:

 

Some may disagree with me here because:

1. Tashkent (a.k.a Trashkent/Trashcan) is an absolute pain to grind, and thus require $$$ to spend on it to save your sanity. (but once you get through it and get on a udaloi, things will change, i promise)

 

2. Free exp modules (especially on trashkent and udaloi, since their stock configuration is just absolute unplayable). Again, $$$ problem due to converting exp, if that's how you want to save your sanity from playing stock ships.

 

Even if you're complaining about the repair cost at high tiers in WOW's, i'm pretty sure its the same thing for WOT (take heavy tanks for example). So i don't see the credits problem in high tiers, all you have to do is to play a few low tiers (tier 4-7) to compensate for the credit loss you play in tier 8-10.

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Beta Tester
296 posts
12,511 battles

I find high tiers much more fun and easy to win than low-mid tiers.

Theres much less variable to work with since majority of the player sit back and wait for someone to feed them.

 

I really hate how low-mid tier players without any thought, move around however they want to.

Is better for the team if they sit still and wait for someone to serve them.

 

Well high tier doesn`t mean 'HIgh Class' or anything special, just play where you enjoy.

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Call me one of the mindless rabble, but I think low-middle tier combat is a lot more exciting than playing with those who have "lemming train" mindet. In lower-mid games, I get to have awesome moments when I can torpedo people and stuff in a cruiser. 

 

High tier combat is dominated by battleships and destroyers. They have the most flexibility of movement whilst cruiser captains like me are restricted. in fear of getting our ships being decimated by battleship guns.

 

It's just sissy fight where people are only brave enough to fight when they're grouping up. You call it organized. I call it boring.

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it's not about money.Its the meta at high tiers. You absolutely cannot depend on team support.

 

Best way to tackle this IMHO is div up. i'm kinda done with t10's for a while once i spec up all the captains. And at that note why isn't the -20% repair cost on SEA? 

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Beta Tester
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As much as everyone hate high tier, i love it and i hate low tiers. The only problem of high tier is the high repair bills and i have to play lower tiers just to progress and have some money to repair my yamato in a premium-less account.

Low tiers, to me, is quite mindless allahu akbar chaos party of newbies, and i'm more of a thinking, chess guy.

 

But I've longed gave up on this game to level up its gameplay. The higher ups are blind on good suggestions. Just look at what they did to the CVs, and now look how it revitalized the CV population. In all my yamato games, i haven't even seen 1 tier 10 CV, not even 1, and no more than 5 games with CVs mostly shokakus and some tier 9s. That CV AA skill is the sure kill bullet to the true, hustler CV players.

Even with good suggestion, as I've said, higher ups are blind. Since we just can't quit a game and stop playing ships we worked so hard for, all we can do is to stop spending money to a company/game that doesn't deserve it

Edited by Deicide

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Even with good suggestion, as I've said, higher ups are blind. Since we just can't quit a game and stop playing ships we worked so hard for, all we can do is to stop spending money to a company/game that doesn't deserve it

 

Some good insights but as i said the meta is bad as majority of the games its passive play.I'm not saying that i will stop playing them completely.I will only in a division.

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As someone used to very aggressive gameplay, I find it a wee bit difficult to move when everyone else is taking their sweet time patrolling islands at 10-20kts with zero spearheading.

 

Makes me think unlocking Fubuki came with a slower player environment compared to Hatsuharu's.

 

It chips my sanity to be reduced to only do torpedo grids(Yes, I'm in the <2km torp-launch, IJN gunboat camp) because no one else wants to advance. I tried to advance- Many times, actually: Death

 

Higher tiers lose the arcade-like feeling in favor of a pragmatic naval battle. Sure, it works, but it isn't too entertaining. It's as though the time I spent on my ships to unlock the next didn't bring any excitement to the table.

 

Domination matches are... Peculiar. No one wants to cap other than DDs and no one caps until all DDs dead due to the torpedo walls. This applies even to non-IJN DDs because a single torpedo is clearly more damaging than a citadel from a gun 406mm+.

 

Soaking fire(That high HP isn't for nothing) and leading a charge in a battleship as intended? Nonexistent. Feels as though battleships want to focus on sinking other battleships at ranges 18km+ away. Cruisers want to set things on fire at maximum range without ever moving in to support people who actually push, IJN destroyers are essentially torpedo-launching turrets mounted at cap zones, SN destroyers are CLs that essentially follow the same trend as the cruisers above, USN destroyers are clouds of smoke that shoot at you.

 

In the very least, CVs are playing normally- Minus the obligatory preliminary CV-kill, which guarantees that both CVs will struggle at striking clustered AA whilst slapping each other's planes down.

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Alpha Tester
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Im not blessed enough to be at tier 10 yet.

I have no great desire to get there either.

Because, a battle is a battle. Whether it be at tier 5 or tier 10, you get the same amount of adrenaline, satisfaction, depression. Maybe the depression could be worse at tier 10, with the costs.

It also seems the battles are more dynamic at lower tiers - this is also true for WoT.

 

 

 

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Alpha Tester
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Low tiers, to me, is quite mindless Banzai chaos party of newbies, and i'm more of a thinking, chess guy.

 

 

Careful there, SEA have their people majority as muslim

and i call that racist as well

say that in context of someone who blow himself along with the target is a bit disturbing

Edited by Harpoon01

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[LYNMF]
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i like playing mid tier, it's more fun and fun is the most important because simply it's just a game

 

i read some so stressed out playing high tier, what's the point play a game and get stress you are suppose to have fun

 

and the rage lol screaming you noob he noob why he didn't do that do this on and on, what's the point really

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Careful there, SEA have their people majority as muslim

I read your updated quote and confuse for a moment. What banzai have to do with muslim lol.

As for the topic at hand i leave it to other, most likely a mod.

Edited by Hero_of_Zero

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Careful there, SEA have their people majority as muslim

I read your updated quote and confuse for a moment. What banzai have to do with muslim lol.

As for the topic at hand i leave it to other, most likely a mod.

Hmmmmm Banzai got to do with fellow Muslims commanders like wot??:look:

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