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_Spawny_

Time for DD MM cap/fix

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Dear WG,

 

Remember the time when MM was broken? Especially CV MM? Thank god it was given a fair make over after numerous players were up in arms when their team had no CV, whilst the enemy had 1 CV. With a competent CV captain, it was enough to tip the scale in battle to the team that had a CV. You've heard the outcries. You've seen the frustration of gamers who love this game, and was all too ready to quit if this problem wasn't fix.

 

And fixed it you did, my dear WG. (God bless your soul)

 

Fast forward to the present. We have now a bigger problem. 

 

THE IMBALANCE MM OF DDs

 

Yes, there is another malignant problem that demands fixing asap. The numerical imbalance on the number of DDs per side is getting more and more out of hand. It seems that MM needs to attend some mathematical therapy on what constitutes being fair to all. An example :-

 

1 dd = 1dd = fair

2 dd = 2 dd = fair

3 dd = 3 dd = fair

4 dd = 4 dd = fair

5 dd = 5 dd = fair

 

However, is this the case that is happening now? Nope. Its normally this scenario :-

 

1 dd = 3 dd = :angry:

2 dd = 4 dd = :angry:

3 dd = 5 dd = :angry:

4 dd = 6 dd = :angry:.....

 

You see where this is going. Does MM think it's funny and fun pitting an imbalance number of DDs in a game? Yes it's fun for the other team that has +2 or +3 DDs more than the enemy. Especially for the DD players...gawd, them XP gain will be sweet. However i implore you, my dear WG, it is certainly not fun for the other team. Look at this example :-

 

shot-16.04.25_09.20.42-0147.jpg

 

1 Tier 8 DD (Lo Yang) vs 2 Tier 9 DD (Kagero) + 1 Tier 7 DD (Mahan)......is this fun? Luckily the Mahan was afk the whole game. If not, it would have been a rout.

 

Please i implore all fair minded players, please upload your SS of this kind of 'FUN' games.

 

Thank you and awaiting a fix in the very VERY near future.

 

Peace out.

 

 

Edited by TE_Spawnster_

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Had a match on Ocean the other day, and this was the teams MM created...

O9GfoIt.jpg?1

Oh nooo! the enemy team had tier 5 BB's and more CA's as well... so how do you think this match played out... our team butchered the enemy, I mean down right slaughter them. As soon as the enemy DD appeared they had 2 chooses, they could try to sit and fight 2-3 DD's and die, or run away and give up an advance position to help their teammates by providing spots. Well in this match we saw both chooses picked, the Clemson tried to put up a fight, but in less than 30-40 sec me and two other teammate DD's sent him to a watery grave. The other 2 enemy DD's just kept running until they ran behind their teammates (I mean it was that or be pelted alive, not much of a choose) which allowed us DD's to have free run on torp-ing to our hearts content.

 

Now granted, maybe this match could have had a different out come but given the team set up that MM provided us gave my team an advantage that the enemy DD's couldn't properly retaliate to.

 

To sum it up, like what Spawnster and other before him have stated, DD's need to follow similar guidelines as what CV's do, they should be a 1 for 1 in the amount of DD's for both team's, and maybe even a 1 for 1 set up on the tier level as well.

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Totally agree with the OP, it's especially frustrating when in a 3 cap point match.

 

Kinda agree with you but i guess +-1 DD still acceptable like 2 = 3  and as mention b4 "MM always working as intended™" :trollface:

 

Yep, a one DD difference is acceptable but 2 tips the scales immensely. 

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Agreed on the +1 on DD advantage..its still OK in that situation. But I'm seeing more and more games where it's +2, even +3 difference. And it's getting tiresome and sucking the joy out of playing ships. Imagine if the other team had +2 Shimikaze....that's an extra 30 torpedoes floating about.

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Super Tester
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If both teams have same composition on every battle, the game will be boring.

Maybe I will want a +/- 2 DDs limit like 2 DD vs 4 DD

but not 1 DD vs 3 DD

Edited by R3negade

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2 vs 4 DD.

 

 Oq947wQ.jpg

 

but guess who won

 

HpeCM6H.jpg

But i agree in this imbalance, but only for high tier matches specially in games with no CV. FOr low and mid tier it doesn't really seem to matter since those DDs still can't equip concealment module and tier 5 captain concealment skill. also at mid and low tiers, cruisers still try to charge unlike in high tiers so DDs are easier to detect and counter at mid tiers.

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I thought I posted one up the other day at the other thread but well more doesn't hurt I guess.
WG, thanks for the shitty MM algorithms which you guys claim to patent and then start to grief the players with.
Am I suppose to play dancing around the 4 x 15 torpedoes ?


Pray tell me, how do I win this game with this stupid MM. 

HzDXroW.jpg

Edited by Jehuty_v2

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Alpha Tester
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I thought I posted one up the other day at the other thread but well more doesn't hurt I guess.

WG, thanks for the shitty MM algorithms which you guys claim to patent and then start to grief the players with.

Am I suppose to play dancing around the 4 x 15 torpedoes ?

 

Pray tell me, how do I win this game with this stupid MM. 

HzDXroW.jpg

 

looks normal except for those Sbhimakaz

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And it will get more frustrating when all your DDs dead in first 5 min :D:D:D

 

Last week, I outplayed 2 DD so hard I make them sit in the bottom of the sea and the exp gain wise within 5 minute (even our team lose).

Never underestimated a bold skurb an Aoba in tier 7 MM. :trollface:

 

PS: No torps were detonate in that knife fight. RUDDER SHIFT OP! :teethhappy:

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Honestly, the primary complaints about DD imbalance right now primarily concerns which team gets the most Kagerous/Shimakazes in high tier matches. Which suggests its less an MM issue and more an issue regarding those two specific ships. The upcoming update has some balance changes targeted towards long-range torpedoes at that tier, so we can probably revisit this issue a week or so after the update hits.

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CV's are only supposed to have around a 10% population, and a CV can have an unacceptably high influence on a battle with little risk if there is no opposing CV.

 

DD's on the other hand are very high risk ships, that can be countered by many different tactics.  In no way should there be mirror matchmaking for DD's.  I've seen plenty of teams that have less DD's win, and given that we have no stats that tell us the win rates of teams with more than one extra DD than the other team, all we have is anecdotal evidence, which is completely subjective.

 

I honestly don't get the continued hate for match making in this game.  You get just as much MM in your favour as you do against you, and I have never loaded into a game and thought that it's going to be particularly difficult to win because of the match making.  The skill of individual players is much more important to winning the game, and the match maker doesn't account for that.  All I do when I load into a game and look at the team lists, is work out which ships I need to be wary of (and what I'll do if I run into them), and which are lunch, and how that list will affect my tactics for the match. If you start with a perception that you can't win because of the match making, then that attitude will make you that much less likely to win.

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Super Tester
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Honestly, the primary complaints about DD imbalance right now primarily concerns which team gets the most Kagerous/Shimakazes in high tier matches. Which suggests its less an MM issue and more an issue regarding those two specific ships. The upcoming update has some balance changes targeted towards long-range torpedoes at that tier, so we can probably revisit this issue a week or so after the update hits.

 

Yet statistics show both Fletcher, Gearing, Khabarovsk and Udaloi with higher win rates and exp meaning all 4 boats out-perform the IJN counterparts and in a game where capping hugely improves your chances of victory, do you really want a DD which only has torpedoes as their primary armament? 

 

Take a look at this

 ocos15v.jpg

 

How is one benson meant to go up against two other bensons + a fletcher? Nerfing Kagerous and Shimakazes will NOT fix your high tier gameplay, normalizing DD distribution will.

 

The skill of individual players is much more important to winning the game, and the match maker doesn't account for that.

One good player in a can't cap and contest every single point when the odds are stacked against you. No matter how good you are you can't carry 11 others, hence why this is a team game and you certainly don't want your game gimped. Otherwise by your logic, you would be fine being a zuihou up against 2 fighter bogues.

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Honestly, the primary complaints about DD imbalance right now primarily concerns which team gets the most Kagerous/Shimakazes in high tier matches. Which suggests its less an MM issue and more an issue regarding those two specific ships. The upcoming update has some balance changes targeted towards long-range torpedoes at that tier, so we can probably revisit this issue a week or so after the update hits.

 

I certainly don`t want IJNDDs on my team.

 

On topic, they should keep all ship types to +-1 difference and atleast 1 BB/CA/DD on both teams.

Having 2 less DDs than your opposing team is a great disadvantage on domination.

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Yet statistics show both Fletcher, Gearing, Khabarovsk and Udaloi with higher win rates and exp meaning all 4 boats out-perform the IJN counterparts and in a game where capping hugely improves your chances of victory, do you really want a DD which only has torpedoes as their primary armament? 

 

Two-week stats of tier 9 and tier 10 destroyers with min. 1000 battles note that while yes, the IJN ships have a slightly lower winrate than the others, they've got a higher average damage and a significantly higher survival rate. Which is the core issue behind most player dissatisfaction with the "DD meta" - IJN DDs can basically blanket a spot of the map in a wall of torpedoes without being detected. Battleship players don't find it fun because suddenly, torpwalls. Cruiser players don't find it fun because suddenly, torpwalls coupled with the need to close into detection range, exposing them to concentrated fire. Other DD players don't find in fun because they, too, have to go in close to detect and kill IJN DDs whereas an IJN DDs can just fall back, wait for their torpedoes to reload, then repeat. And high-tier carrier players have to split their attention between defending themselves from snipes and earning exp to make up for credit costs, meaning they're less likely to devote a squadron into an activity that doesn't really give them any rewards.

 

So yeah, number of issues in play here. We'll see how the new torpedoes affect the average damage, average survival rate and number of Shimakazes/Kagerous in queue.

Edited by Syanda

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Two-week stats of tier 9 and tier 10 destroyers with min. 1000 battles note that while yes, the IJN ships have a slightly lower winrate than the others, they've got a higher average damage and a significantly higher survival rate. Which is the core issue behind most player dissatisfaction with the "DD meta" - IJN DDs can basically blanket a spot of the map in a wall of torpedoes without being detected. Battleship players don't find it fun because suddenly, torpwalls. Cruiser players don't find it fun because suddenly, torpwalls coupled with the need to close into detection range, exposing them to concentrated fire. 

 

No one finds anything at high tier fun because of the ridiculous repair costs as well as the horrible matchmaking. People find a lot of "fun" when they win, and it's not easy to win when DDs, one of the most influential classes, are uneven. If you normalize the amount of DDs on each side (same amount of DDs on each side), then they could go hunt IJN DDs, like their intended purpose.

 

Other DD players don't find in fun because they, too, have to go in close to detect and kill IJN DDs whereas an IJN DDs can just fall back, wait for their torpedoes to reload, then repeat.

 

The Khabarovsk and Udaloi are both faster than their counter parts, Kagerou and Shimakaze (Even fletcher is faster than Kagerou) so you can't say IJN DDs can simple fall back. You also have to account for engine breakdown (every time you get shot) and an IJN DD would rather pick faster torpedo reload than last stand.

 

And high-tier carrier players have to split their attention between defending themselves from snipes and earning exp to make up for credit costs, meaning they're less likely to devote a squadron into an activity that doesn't really give them any rewards.

 

The purpose of high-tier carrier players is that they have to be skilled. This means being able to manage 5 or 6-8 squads. All they have to do is leave a squad of DBs or fighters to detect the DDs and what does detecting DDs do? It gives information to the team that there is a DD there and hopefully, lets the team know there are torps headed their way or to aim it. But it is hard when your team has 3 DDs and the enemy has 5. And the reward for having more information than the enemy? Winning. Winning with increase your exp by 1.5x at the cost of a fighter (doesn't deal damage and shooting down plane gives minimal rewards) or a DB squad (relies too heavily on RNG to be effective).

 

Believe me, I've personally experienced high tiers in CAs, DDs and CVs.

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First i have to say that im not Syanda friends or Lewd-chan order me to deference him(or her ?) and im not actually try to please him (or her ?) :P

 

No one finds anything at high tier fun because of the ridiculous repair costs as well as the horrible matchmaking. People find a lot of "fun" when they win, and it's not easy to win when DDs, one of the most influential classes, are uneven. If you normalize the amount of DDs on each side (same amount of DDs on each side), then they could go hunt IJN DDs, like their intended purpose.

 

Lately im not really playing anythings lower than Tier 7 (might do fews game but not really play them as much) because i found it more enjoyable compare to low tier i never found that "Win = Fun" but the moment that im "Trying" to win is the most enjoyable, repair cost is not my problems i always running premium account so im fine :D:D:D

 

The Khabarovsk and Udaloi are both faster than their counter parts, Kagerou and Shimakaze (Even fletcher is faster than Kagerou) so you can't say IJN DDs can simple fall back. You also have to account for engine breakdown (every time you get shot) and an IJN DD would rather pick faster torpedo reload than last stand.

 

I dont know if you actually play those ship your self or not but Hunting DD in Khabarovsk and Udaloi against "Skillful player" is really hard since your concealment is really bad compare to IJN DDs (assume both DD have CE) that more than 1km gap of spotting distance which in mean time if you have CA or other friendly ships around RU DDs gonna get focus fire you dont have to actually fight RU DD ur self they gonna die before they even have chance to spot you.

 

But yes atm Fletcher really dominate high tier DDs with that Concealment and Powerful Torpedoes this have been discussed within my friends group before.

 

No opinion about captain skill do pick whatever you see fit. 

 

The purpose of high-tier carrier players is that they have to be skilled. This means being able to manage 5 or 6-8 squads. All they have to do is leave a squad of DBs or fighters to detect the DDs and what does detecting DDs do? It gives information to the team that there is a DD there and hopefully, lets the team know there are torps headed their way or to aim it. But it is hard when your team has 3 DDs and the enemy has 5. And the reward for having more information than the enemy? Winning. Winning with increase your exp by 1.5x at the cost of a fighter (doesn't deal damage and shooting down plane gives minimal rewards) or a DB squad (relies too heavily on RNG to be effective).

 

Believe me, I've personally experienced high tiers in CAs, DDs and CVs.

 

I found that High Tier CVs player tend to Spot and Kill DDs more often compare to Mid Tier CVs since they have more sq to operate so they can devote some of them for this roles but that just my opinion no proof about that and im not play CV my self so i dont really know how hard that will be :D:D:D

Edited by MeloMelonSoda

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short range torpedo is for US/RU DD they also have great gun.

Long range torpedo is for IJNDD since then have no mean to fight up close

 

reason why they torp form afar

tier 8-10 CA gun to extremely powerful... too powerful for a IJNDD to get close for torp,

 

 

get in 7 km range to torp ---- 1 hit the rest miss -- enemy hit a radar -- spotted!! -- prey for RNG to survive HE barrage until get out of radar range --- too bad, die... -- credit bleed...

 

kagero, fubuki are TOO SLOW to get close, torp, and come out.

 

nerf by shorten their torpedo? fine, buff their speed to 39 knot like minekaze!! so they have chance to runaway

Edited by PGM991

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Take a look at this

 ocos15v.jpg

 

How is one benson meant to go up against two other bensons + a fletcher? Nerfing Kagerous and Shimakazes will NOT fix your high tier gameplay, normalizing DD distribution will.

 

Well you clearly have to adapt your play for that match.  Playing the normal confident US DD way where you push hard into the enemy destroyers is clearly going to be a low percentage play, because if you run into more than one of their US DD's the odds are very much against you.

 

You have six cruisers to their four.  Use that to your advantage.  Pick the cruisers that are sticking together and moving up the most and screen them about 4km or so in front while throwing torps if the opportunity arises. You may give up caps at the start, and you may take longer than usual to get into combat, but those US DD's will be confident with their numbers advantage and they will push up into you and when you spot them all those cruisers you are screening will open up on the enemy DD's.  You can then choose to either shoot if the numbers are in your favour or you can fall back without shooting and spot the enemy DD's who will no doubt be shooting at you giving you the spot advantage.  Once the enemy US DD's are dead or in retreat you can push up into the caps and start hunting for the IJN DD's.

 

This is how I tend to play my US DD's in this situation.  Others may have equally effective tactics they use.  The point is, the match maker will give you challenges, it's up to you to overcome them rather than complain about them.

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Super Tester
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Well you clearly have to adapt your play for that match.  Playing the normal confident US DD way where you push hard into the enemy destroyers is clearly going to be a low percentage play, because if you run into more than one of their US DD's the odds are very much against you.

 

You have six cruisers to their four.  Use that to your advantage.  Pick the cruisers that are sticking together and moving up the most and screen them about 4km or so in front while throwing torps if the opportunity arises. You may give up caps at the start, and you may take longer than usual to get into combat, but those US DD's will be confident with their numbers advantage and they will push up into you and when you spot them all those cruisers you are screening will open up on the enemy DD's.  You can then choose to either shoot if the numbers are in your favour or you can fall back without shooting and spot the enemy DD's who will no doubt be shooting at you giving you the spot advantage.  Once the enemy US DD's are dead or in retreat you can push up into the caps and start hunting for the IJN DD's.

 

You forgot to realize that any smart player would simple take all 3 caps and camp you out. Due to the fact that the DD distribution is UNEVEN, the cruisers won't push but instead camp at the back due to the ability of constant torpedo waves, again due to the fact that they have MORE DDs. And why should the odds be against me when playing? Why should I be gimped from the get-go? Again, you're saying that it's fine for the Matchmaking to be unbalanced?

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