Jump to content
You need to play a total of 10 battles to post in this section.
Hiroyoshi_Andersen

US Battleships Mainguns Despersion too High!

72 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

Member
52 posts

greetings captains

i have a [content removed] question..

Why the hell is the US battleships has too goddamn high dispersion?

i just compared New mexico , Colorado to the Japanese Ones

New Mexico Has 233 m dispersion while the Fuso got 179 m

you know what? im sick of this unbalanced bullship

My new mexico cant perform very well in every battle

this really needs to get balanced

(share your facts or OPs so i can evaluate and understand why)

Comprende ese?

 

Profanity. Post edited, user warned.

 

~amade

Edited by amade

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
231
[151ST]
Member
1,017 posts
4,530 battles

They're just a different play style.

 

GENERALLY speaking they have much higher armour values and more guns.

They're more about brawling at the 12-16km mark (around tier 4-6).

 

Before complaining about a ship/type, know it's strengths and weaknesses and play to them.

By doing this I have generally improved by leaps and bounds with certain ships that I'm horrible with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
580 posts
1,587 battles

From my observations, USN Battleships in this game are meant to brawl... Notice how the rotation speed of their guns rotate much faster than their IJN counterparts? and armor seems to work even better than IJN armor (given that you're angled)

 

Although that does not mean you should gung-ho into the fray... You're suppose to be center of an aggresive advancing force to be truly effective, that means advance with cruisers and/or other BBs...

 

As a fat, aged, bearded, brit youtuber always says "Never underestimate the power of Teamwork, it gives the enemy somebody else to shoot at..."

Edited by Kreigg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
406 posts
6,287 battles

Do you know what Brawling in a BB means?

 

Getting burned to a crisp whilst focus fired by 2-3 cruisers.

 

I'm up to my Iowa, but having unlocked the ARP Kongo - its a beast compared to the NY - Faster, longer range, better dispersion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
783 posts
4,829 battles

The relatively worse dispersion is more apparent on high tiers due to the current meta.

 

But it's generally not an issue if they do get to brawl range as intended especially at low tiers.

I personally have a way harder time getting cits against USN BBs than I would against the IJN counterparts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Video Contributor
860 posts
10,965 battles

USN "Superior Radar Enhanced Fire Control System" doesn't work here and never will (at least only on their BBs)

To counter that you need to be closer to the enemy.. Less distance = less dispersion = more citadels

US BBs have generally better armor than IJN, they we're meant to brawl not snipe

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
147
[BLUMR]
Member
1,134 posts
1,377 battles

Are you looking at the stocks stats or fully upgraded for both?

 

Cause Fuso with the final hull and FCS  has 241m of dispersion since its range got boosted up from 13.2km to 21.8km...

As Eurobeat posted above: Less distance = less dispersion = more citadels, if you really wanted to reduce the dispersion on the New Mex then either get closer or take out the range upgrade and it will drops to 209m. 

 

 

 

Edited by Chawp

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
575 posts
5,354 battles

They're just a different play style.

 

GENERALLY speaking they have much higher armour values and more guns.

They're more about brawling at the 12-16km mark (around tier 4-6).

 

Before complaining about a ship/type, know it's strengths and weaknesses and play to them.

By doing this I have generally improved by leaps and bounds with certain ships that I'm horrible with.

 

So what's WG's excuse for the North Carolina (293m and cannot use FC Mod 1), Iowa (293m can use FC Mod 1 273m), and the Montana (297m can use FC Mod 1 279m)? These 3 ships cannot brawl. Their armor is easily penetrated by any of the tier 8+ BBs in the game. They cannot sit at long range to fire and hit with any reasonable dependability. However, you look at the Amagi (214 with mod), Izumo 226m with mod), and the Yamato (254m with mod), they can sit at long range and do the opposite. This is especially true for the Yamato who has the longest range in the game unmodified. It has the best armor and gun accuracy that puts the North Carolina, Iowa, and Montana to shame. That's fire and balanced? No, it isn't. The current meta in this game heavily favors the IJN BB's especially at tier 8+. You can say "learn this, that, or the other" all day long; however, it is blatantly obvious to anyone not blinded by fanboism that IJN BBs are better than US BBs at the higher tiers. This is why I will never play the Montana until these developers pull their collective heads out of the anal openings and fix this huge disparaging they currently have.

 

And a note on historical fact, the North Carolina, South Dakota, and Iowa Classes had the most accurate naval guns in the history of naval warfare to take advantage of all others to fire AP shells at 32km and HE shells at 35km because of the most advanced Fire Control Radar system they had. This ensured that they reduced the chances of being hit with return fire from IJN BBs during the War. Case in point, the Washington sent Kirishima to the bottom during the 2nd Battle of Savo Island from 5800 yards because Washington remained undetected and had the Kirishima on her FC radar. The Kirishima had no chance because of the accuracy of the Washington's 16/45 guns and they could not see the Washington to target her because they did not have fire control radar of any account.

 

Do I expect WG to base it's game on historical truth and facts for their arcade game? No. But I do expect them not to ignore the truth of it. Based on what they've done, they turned these superior BBs into shotgun firing BBs that has to close within the firing range of CAs in order to have any chance of descent accuracy. Meanwhile the IJN BBs do not suffer the horrendous dispersion the US BBs do that is even more exacerbated by RNG. The North Carolina and Iowa were as fast if not faster and equally as maneuverable as the IJN BBs. But not in this game. Clearly there are some huge problems and most of them are suffered by the US BB line. You can agree or not, but that is the truth of the matter. And saying, 'it's for game balance' is utter bovine excrement and the saddest excuse to white wash glaring problems staring everyone in the face where many refuse to see or acknowledge. If there was balance in this game at these higher tiers, there would be near parity between these ships where player skill is more reliable and prevalent. There is no parity thus no balance between the tier 8+ BBs. Even the Tirpitz suffers horrendous dispersion problems (less than the North Carolina) but still 40m worse than the Amagi. Right now, it is play IJN BBs because they can reliably hit their targets at longer range than the US and German BBs.

Edited by RebelliousYankee

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
1,126 posts

USBB are design to brawl fight?

 

but in this game, BB CAN'T brawl fight, because of fire.

 

and armor are 'useless' against fire.

 

and skill/upgrade that help BB fight the fire are all crappy.

 

so... what?

 

---------------------

 

IMO

since BB have longest reload time and slow turret traverse speed. 1 miss have to wait for another 30 sec when enemy should notice that he being targeted and start evade he shell already.

it SHOULD have best accuracy than any ship in game to compensate that.

 

but great accuracy also mean.... 'hit all or miss all' no lucky stray shot.

can BB player accept that?

Edited by PGM991

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
30 posts
6,538 battles

From my very vast experience with NM and america BB, NM meant to brawl, defend, tanking, or just simply battery support. You often miss with Murica BB but it makes up with armour atleast until Colo, then afterwards its all about versatility. NM, has high dispersion, but the damage are just freaking amazing with 12 guns... You holding a dangerous weapon there, son... The only BB that I know to one hit delete a Nagato too!! and Kongo and numerous cruiser! I love USN BB, especially NM! Fire, pfffttt, whats that?

Edited by generalhetzer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
231
[151ST]
Member
1,017 posts
4,530 battles

rant

 

USN gun dispersion is what it is, they compensate with other strengths. Number of guns being one of them. NC/Iowa are standouts of the tier IMO.

 

Amagi can be cita'd by CAs, NC is well rounded.

Izumo has horrible armour and is easy to cita (except from front). Iowa is a far more balanced ship.

Yamato - is well, a Yamato. Montana has better broadside potential and turret traverse. I won't argue, Yamato is nasty - however I frequently flamenwerfer it to death in an Atago,

Yamato shots are easy to dodge, Less so in a BB - but by no means impossible.

 

As a CA player, I will chase down Izumo and Amagi and pummel them, even a Yamato (will stay at max range and flamenwerf in her case)

NC/Iowa I avoid like the plague. Montana I simply don't see very often so can't comment. (One could argue that speaks for itself...)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
760 posts
6,922 battles

 

 

^Izumo has its share of issues which makes the Iowa and her albeit reduced top speed still competitive, but I get what you are saying, the NC which I have has terrible dispersion compared to the Colorado, heck the Colorado had better armour (given she is a Dreadnought) and better firing arcs of her main battery. The North Carolina while having much better speed has meh armour and bad dispersion issues, and given her huge length/side has trouble turning as well.

 

Her secondary batteries are also rather meek both in fire-power and survivability when compared to an Amagi's even though the 5"/28 DP gun was a better all rounder than the 6" Naval gun the IJN copied from the Brits (those case-mate mounts were impractical, yet somehow they have better protection and firing range than a free turret like the 5" guns)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
1,107 posts
7,849 battles

Historicly, Between the wars some variants of the USN 14" gun suffered from an interior ballistic instability which caused projectiles to unpredictably fall into either one of two velocity groups. producing "Wild Shoot"

 

In fact, all US dreadnoughts in WWI seem to have suffered from excessive dispersion.

Aside from flawed interior ballistic, inconsistent shell seating by inexperienced crews were also major contributor

Edited by humusz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
575 posts
5,354 battles

 

USN gun dispersion is what it is, they compensate with other strengths. Number of guns being one of them. NC/Iowa are standouts of the tier IMO.

 

Amagi can be cita'd by CAs, NC is well rounded.

Izumo has horrible armour and is easy to cita (except from front). Iowa is a far more balanced ship.

Yamato - is well, a Yamato. Montana has better broadside potential and turret traverse. I won't argue, Yamato is nasty - however I frequently flamenwerfer it to death in an Atago,

Yamato shots are easy to dodge, Less so in a BB - but by no means impossible.

 

As a CA player, I will chase down Izumo and Amagi and pummel them, even a Yamato (will stay at max range and flamenwerf in her case)

NC/Iowa I avoid like the plague. Montana I simply don't see very often so can't comment. (One could argue that speaks for itself...)

 

You see, calling what I said a rant when it was a counter argument to your point falls into the category I mentioned. You truly believe that US BBs having bad dispersion is okay because it has better in other areas. News Flash, main battery fire is the most important thing for a BB next to its protection. A BB is useless if he can only hit 1 or 2 times per salvo at range out of 5 salvos. There is no argument you can offer or put up that will change the fact that the WG developers gave the IJN BBs something they did not have OVER the US BBs at tier 8+, accuracy. North Carolina cannot survive a battle in this game if it has to close within 16km of the enemy because it will be burned to death by the lazy HE spammers. Iowa and Montana are the same. While every BB have their problems (except the Yamato, she is the darling BB of the game), having accuracy issues for IJN BBs isn't one of them. They have superior dispersion while US BBs clearly do not.

 

People who say "historical facts have no place or cannot be represented in an arcade game" have no clue what they are talking about. It is their way to justify the blatant unbalanced mechanics in place in this game now. A good developer/designer balances historical with game needs. Clearly these developers are either incapable of doing - or - they  choose to ignore factual evidence to make something work that wasn't factual.

 

You say an Amagi can be citadeled by a CA. So can the North Carolina, Iowa and Montana if they are showing their broadside. I know, I've done it in my Atago, Roon, and Hipper. Any BB in this game at tier 6 or higher can be nailed that way by a CA firing AP showing their broadside. I fought a North Carolina in my Amagi at 9km in a ranked match. I presented my a bow on perspective with 10 degree angle. His forward 2 batteries either bounced off my hull, did minimal damage to my super structure, or missed. I turned my entire broadside to him he fired his aft battery at 7km at me and missed. I fired all turrets and hit him with 5 citadels and obliterated the ship doing 48k damage removing all his HP. I lost 5k and I had 10k when we met. I knew I'd survive that exchange because how bad the accuracy the North Carolina has. If that had been an Iowa I'd kept it at range because it has slightly better accuracy.

 

US BBs at tier 8+ have any strength to close to increase their effective main battery fire at the ranges you or others believe they should and survive. IJN BBs do not suffer this problem because they can keep outside the effective ranges of most ships and rain accurate main battery fire on their targets. Something they were never known to do, yet the US BBs were. And this is okay in your book because of these supposedly better strengths? Sorry, but none of that washes away the truth of the current meta imposed on the aforementioned US BBs. WG purposefully made them inadequate and less competitive concerning their main battery fire and accuracy at the ranges they were original designed to fight at.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
54 posts
7,230 battles

As others have said, US bb's are meant to brawl, not snipe, but then even IJN BB's shouldn't really snipe like happens most times in game (you ever notice how the side with the BB's trying to snipe LOSE 9 times out of 10, unless it's BOTH sides, which is unfortunately the norm). It's a problem with the current player mentality of "I can't get a scratch on the ship!!!!" that causes most games at higher tiers to be so boring and frustrating for those that want to win. As a brawling BB, you want to act a little like a DD, use cover to get closer and then when you're in the 10 to 12km range your going to do a LOT of damage.

 


 

Additionally, you can't take the value for dispersion in the game tool tip at face value, it's not an accurate reflection of dispersion that I wish they'd fix to a proper, directly comparable ratio. What you need to do is the following;


 

Dispersion value/max range = Actual dispersion factor (or more accurately the dispersion per km of shell travel).


 

This will stay the same as the range increases from various modifies (captain skills/range module/FCS), and drops with the accuracy mod. Obviously the lower the number the better


 

so for some of those mentioned in the thread (stock, from tech tree as I don't have any of these in port ATM), you get the following, and you can see it's not as big a difference as you'd expect (mathematically);


 

  dispersion (m) range (km) Actual Dispersion (m per km)
New Mex 196 13.6 14.41176
Col 212 15.2 13.94737
Kongo 223 19.3 11.5544
Fuso 179 13.2 13.56061
Iowa 272 21.2 12.83019

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
406 posts
6,287 battles

If they want US BBs to Brawl then it is simple:

 

1: increase range/accuracy of Secondaries

2: Increase Accuracy at sub 10km Ranges

3: Decrease the Detectability of the BBs

4: Remove the Spotter plane as an option

5: Decrease fire chance/damage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
147
[BLUMR]
Member
1,134 posts
1,377 battles

so for some of those mentioned in the thread (stock, from tech tree as I don't have any of these in port ATM), you get the following, and you can see it's not as big a difference as you'd expect (mathematically);

 

You can get can sorta get the fully upgraded stats without needing to buy the ship. Just click on the last hull/Gun/FCS upgrade and it should update the stats on the right.

Only problem is, if there are multiple final upgrades that increase the stats of the main guns you're gonna have to do some maths to figure out the final stats.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
6,604 posts
2,477 battles

If they want US BBs to Brawl then it is simple:

 

1: increase range/accuracy of Secondaries

2: Increase Accuracy at sub 10km Ranges

3: Decrease the Detectability of the BBs

4: Remove the Spotter plane as an option

5: Decrease fire chance/damage.

 

4. this plane can be used to scout enemy DD (yes, I'm serious) and enemy behind island

you should change/add it to "makes the duration longer" 

Edited by Harpoon01

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
406 posts
6,287 battles

 

4. this plane can be used to scout enemy DD (yes, I'm serious) and enemy behind island

you should change/add it to "makes the duration longer" 

 

Fighter plane can also scout enemy DDs - Spotter plane just encourages sniping.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Senior Moderator
4,798 posts
1,924 battles

 

4. this plane can be used to scout enemy DD (yes, I'm serious) and enemy behind island

you should change/add it to "makes the duration longer" 

 

what you mean return the scout plane back to what it did in CBT/OBT???? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
6,604 posts
2,477 battles

 

Fighter plane can also scout enemy DDs - Spotter plane just encourages sniping.

 

yes, more or less, i agree with that, but the slot must be replaced with something else then (like choosing between sonar or AA barage in cruiser)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
6,604 posts
2,477 battles

 

what you mean return the scout plane back to what it did in CBT/OBT???? 

 

well, that certainly had some problem before, i forgot

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
109 posts
5,101 battles

US battleships from tier IV-VII are good brawlers because their "all-or-nothing" armor, fast turret traverse speed and very tight turning radius, but not with the last three battleships. They have poor maneuverability, questionable side armor ( don't ever show your broadside - they are floating citadels) and even unreliable guns at time ( it's weird because they're very accurately irl). If you try to get close, you will be:

  1. Burned to death by CAs HE
  2. Flooded to death by DDs "torpedo walls" or CV planes

And I noticed no one is willing to push unless someone initiate it first ( maybe except DDs), not to mention if you make a mistake and that's over 100k repair bill, so yeah, it's best to sit far away and snipe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
54 posts
7,230 battles

so for some of those mentioned in the thread (stock, from tech tree as I don't have any of these in port ATM), you get the following, and you can see it's not as big a difference as you'd expect (mathematically);

 

You can get can sorta get the fully upgraded stats without needing to buy the ship. Just click on the last hull/Gun/FCS upgrade and it should update the stats on the right.

Only problem is, if there are multiple final upgrades that increase the stats of the main guns you're gonna have to do some maths to figure out the final stats.

 

 

Your correct, but I was just explaining the way you really need to compare it.

 

 

 

Also, I realise FUSO is an exception with the B hull giving the big range increase (and accuracy as well!), while most ships don't have that change. Additionally, last time I looked at the FCS it didn't increase accuracy, just range, and stupidly assumed it was the same for all ships, but looks like that's not correct as now FCS DOES appear to improve accuracy by about 0.5 per km (admittedly, last time I worked out dispersion it was a few patches ago too).

 

  Dispersion Range Actual Dispersion
Fuso Base 179 13.2 13.56061
Fuso B Hull 211 19.8 10.65657
Fuso C Hull 211 19.8 10.65657
Fuso with FCS 224 21.8 10.27523
       
New Mex Base 196 13.6 14.41176
New Mex FCS 209 14.9 14.02685

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×