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Boltergeist

Battleships Not Maneuvering...

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...just all stop, camping, and firing.

 

I noticed this tonight in the 3 tier 9/10 battles I fought in my Iowa. Yes, I repurchased the Iowa to see if the FC mod made firing better instead of using the mod that lowers the reload time. Anyway, I watched Yamatos, Tirpitz, Izumi, and other BBs move up to closer range, stop put angle on the hull and fire, fire, fire at targets that came within their firing arcs and range. Even with CVs in the game, they almost never moved if they did, it was all back full. My question is why? It doesn't make any sense to do something like that. I shot up 2 Yamatos killing one, nearly blew another Iowa out of the water in 3 salvos (someone snaked the kill on me before I could get it), and a North Carolina that moved around at 1/4 bell (speed). I sailed back and forth zig-zagging always at an angle as I moved pushing up when possible and falling back when needed. I never took any huge hits, mostly bounced and a few hits from some Flamers (Mogamis). This 'tactic' if you want to call it that just simply boggles the mind. I cannot fathom doing this myself. How is this even smart to do? Can someone with more time in tier 9 enlighten me to this...ahem...WoT 'tactic' that seems to be used?

Edited by RebelliousYankee

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Beta Tester
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It's similar to side scraping in WoT, you see all those Heavies/Battleship just camp at 1 corner/spot and angle their armor while blasting away at enemies until they are dead before moving on...

 

Except, in this game there's very little hard cover, and ship's guns shoot really far that you don't really need to move as much. Or to be more precise, getting close isn't really a good idea if there's a DD or torpedo-armed cruiser around. You don't want to get into torpedo range of an enemy ship that you can't see, that's why high tier BB players tend not to do risky maneuvers.

 

That tactics sure is unrealistic, but it works. You don't see tanks sidescrape in real life either, so it's the same thing for both WG games (I don't agree with that either, but that's how you roll in a heavily armored vehicles in these games).

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Super Tester
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Its a shame really to see some tier 9/10 BB captains camp and shoot , especially since I used to captain an Iowa back in CBT (and seeing how some Iowa captains camp n shoot, ughhhh) . Just play the game as usual and group up with other teammates who are actively pushing if you encounter those kinds of BB captains who cant use their high HP pools and hard hitting guns to their advantage, let alone becoming a sitting duck for CV's and other ships by camping. But hey its random battles, you will probably encounter those kinds of players

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It's similar to side scraping in WoT, you see all those Heavies/Battleship just camp at 1 corner/spot and angle their armor while blasting away at enemies until they are dead before moving on...

 

Except, in this game there's very little hard cover, and ship's guns shoot really far that you don't really need to move as much. Or to be more precise, getting close isn't really a good idea if there's a DD or torpedo-armed cruiser around. You don't want to get into torpedo range of an enemy ship that you can't see, that's why high tier BB players tend not to do risky maneuvers.

 

That tactics sure is unrealistic, but it works. You don't see tanks sidescrape in real life either, so it's the same thing for both WG games (I don't agree with that either, but that's how you roll in a heavily armored vehicles in these games).

 

Not side-scraping per se, but hull down, dug in and all that - yes they did. Maybe not so much nowadays, but there was a lot of it in WW2. It wouldn't surprise me if an odd Tank commander or two did in fact side-scrape. 

 

...just all stop, camping, and firing.

 

I noticed this tonight in the 3 tier 9/10 battles I fought in my Iowa. Yes, I repurchased the Iowa to see if the FC mod made firing better instead of using the mod that lowers the reload time. Anyway, I watched Yamatos, Tirpitz, Izumi, and other BBs move up to closer range, stop put angle on the hull and fire, fire, fire at targets that came within their firing arcs and range. Even with CVs in the game, they almost never moved if they did, it was all back full. My question is why? It doesn't make any sense to do something like that. I shot up 2 Yamatos killing one, nearly blew another Iowa out of the water in 3 salvos (someone snaked the kill on me before I could get it), and a North Carolina that moved around at 1/4 bell (speed). I sailed back and forth zig-zagging always at an angle as I moved pushing up when possible and falling back when needed. I never took any huge hits, mostly bounced and a few hits from some Flamers (Mogamis). This 'tactic' if you want to call it that just simply boggles the mind. I cannot fathom doing this myself. How is this even smart to do? Can someone with more time in tier 9 enlighten me to this...ahem...WoT 'tactic' that seems to be used?

 

Why won't they do this in games where I'm playing a CV :playing:

 

Yeah it's pretty annoying, I wonder if they'll actually learn that moving is the trick and staying still doesn't improve accuracy...

The stuff WoWS Asia comes up with... :sceptic:

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The stuff WoWS Asia comes up with... :sceptic:

 

It's not Asia - this is a tactic that many battleship captains use on all servers (and also popularized by quite a few streamers). It started out with Iowa and its bug with damage thresholds. Think of it as an extreme form of angling.

 

Main thing that kills battleships at the high tiers is usually Yamato, or having broadsides exposed for citadel fire or HE spam. Furthermore, with the majority of turrets concentrated fore, most players tend to discard using the aft turret(s) and engage with the fore turrets only. What these guys are doing is that they park bow-on to a threat so any incoming AP shellfire can't pen the citadels, and in fact, typically just glance off the bow armour. It also minimizes target profile for HE fire and reduces the chances of multiple fires (since hitting bow on, you can only set around 2 fires most of the time). Furthermore, high tier battleships have sufficient HP that HE spamming their front portions will allow them to hit their damage thresholds, resulting in reduced/no damage. Also, by hanging back like such and parking, it force enemy destroyers to come in much closer for torpedo runs, which can then be dodged by simply accelerating. Downside is that it needs extreme situational awareness to get up to speed if a CV spots and sends torpedo bombers, and is still vulnerable to extreme long-range stealth torpedo strikes that somehow make it the entire distance without being detected.

 

Whether its a good tactic or not is debatable, but there are quite a few plus points to playing like such.

Edited by Syanda

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ST Coordinator
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Not side-scraping per se, but hull down, dug in and all that - yes they did. Maybe not so much nowadays, but there was a lot of it in WW2. It wouldn't surprise me if an odd Tank commander or two did in fact side-scrape. 

 

You would not survive a "side scrape" attempt in WWII, cause you will most likely get your tracks shot off and have to abandon your tank.

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You would not survive a "side scrape" attempt in WWII, cause you will most likely get your tracks shot off and have to abandon your tank.

Can't they just press 4-4 and get their tank moving again though?

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it's probably like "hey! do you know how expensive this ship is!? if it sunk even if our team win my credit still bleed!"

lol

who knows, I may be one of them when I reach tier 10 ship =w=

 

since credit won't effect by match result (win/lose) so... do some damage and keep you ship away from harm, if we win good, if we lose? well at least I still save some credit...

Edited by PGM991

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Simple solution:

 

Increase the accuracy of guns firing at Stationary targets (Where are your Campers now?)

 

 

Excellent idea. I was shelling the hell out of one such enemy who was firing at someone else to his side and I couldn't believe how long it took me to destroy him, although I was at his bow.

 

I don't think you'll ever getting away from camping in games like this or battleCamp 4 etc..... but a failing to move algorithm would be good or an ever decreasing map where once you hit your own edge its like a waterfall and you fall off the game.

How about 3rd salvo on any stationary target is auto citadel hit/sinking if engines at zero and not disabled.

 

 

Personally I play pretty aggressive on all ship models just for the hell of it.

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It's not Asia - this is a tactic that many battleship captains use on all servers (and also popularized by quite a few streamers). It started out with Iowa and its bug with damage thresholds. Think of it as an extreme form of angling.

 

 

I was joking around, I didn't really believe that it was just an Asia thing... :P

I've seen it more in lower tiers than I have in higher. The funniest part is that I've seen BBs such as a Myogi do it despite having 2/3rds of it's firepower rear-mounted (I do realise it has a nice firing angle from those rear turrets). However it's a BC, which means good speed and poor armour - so being stationary at all is a waste... :sceptic:

 

 

You would not survive a "side scrape" attempt in WWII, cause you will most likely get your tracks shot off and have to abandon your tank.

 

Ummm you are forgetting multiple battles where the Wehrmachts strategy was hold at all costs and to death.

It is possible they used sidescraping on such tanks as the Panther or Konigstigers if such tanks were having trasmission issues (common) and given their sloped armour.

(Think static battles in urban centres)

 

The point I was making is that it is possible that side-scraping happened in WW2 albeit unintentionally or only under extreme circumstances.

We know that hull down, digging tanks in and other such similar tactics did occur frequently however.

 

Anyways enough of me being off-topic - BB stuff go on... :popcorn:

 

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I believe that any ship that stays dead in the water is a DEAD ship!

 

I never and will never stop my BB just to camp and shoot at range.

 

Dispersion at range is craptacular on most BB's and the time that it takes to begin moving from a dead stop will mean you are dead meat if you are caught unawares.

 

It is a stupid tactic with more cons than pro's.

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Whether its a good tactic or not is debatable, but there are quite a few plus points to playing like such.

 

I will point out that a battleship is susceptible to a citadel hit from plunging fire from the front. I put 2 broadsides into a Yamato from 19km and scored two citadel hits because of the high arc of my rounds. You don't aim at the bow of the ship, you aim at the superstructure of the stationary target and you'll be rewarded with good hits and damage. That same Yamato back out and moved along the northern part of the main island in North (the one that runs east to west on the map). He came to a stop at the opening of torpedo alley where I sailed out from the small island 13km and put a full broadside into him sending him to the bottom...he gave me his broadside to shoot at this time and I made him pay for it. We still lost that battle, but it was satisfying to get that kill after all that time of him 'hulldown camping.' :teethhappy:

Edited by RebelliousYankee

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Simple solution:

 

Increase the accuracy of guns firing at Stationary targets (Where are your Campers now?)

 

easier said than done

 

if the system really did implement, all they did is just kick engine 1/4 than stop than kick it again 1/4,

keep their ship at a 1 - 2 knot speed... and that's all

 

to shooter their are stationary, but to system, their still moving.

 

and forget about slower they go, higher accuracy, that one hell of the program to write,

and slow ship like BB player will cry like hell.

Edited by PGM991

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easier said than done

 

if the system really did implement, all they did is just kick engine 1/4 than stop than kick it again 1/4,

keep their ship at a 1 - 2 knot speed... and that's all

 

to shooter their are stationary, but to system, their still moving.

 

and forget about slower they go, higher accuracy, that one hell of the program to write,

and slow ship like BB player will cry like hell.

 

Not really -

 

Max speed of the ship = normal dispersion of guns (so the normal RNG multiplier)

stationary ship = reduced dispersion of guns (so a decimal number multiplied by the normal RNG multiplier) - then there is a percentage multiplier based on the % of max speed that ship is currently travelling.

 

You simply take the inverse percentage of the speed so 90% of max speed means a reduction of 10%  to the decimal multiple (ie 0.9  would become 0.81) and so on and so forth.

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easier to reverse the solution.

I.E. make stationary ships have a penalty on the dispersion for every knot under 5 (remove the viability of the go/stop/go/stop strategy).

E.G. 5kts and greater no penalty,
4kts +25% dispersion penalty
3kts +50% dispersion penalty
2kts +75% dispersion penalty
1 or 0 kts +100% dispersion penalty

 

(would love to see a similar block to CV's - i.e. under 10kts and planes can't take off, under 5kts planes can't land or take off)

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Simple solution:

 

Increase the accuracy of guns firing at Stationary targets (Where are your Campers now?)

 

I suggested exactly that quite some time ago. It also has the virtue of being historically accurate in that a moving ship firing on a stationary target had everything in its favour (witness the bombardment of Mers-el-Kebir for an example).

 

Got called all sorts of names and accused of wanting to buff BBs because reasons.

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easier to reverse the solution.

I.E. make stationary ships have a penalty on the dispersion for every knot under 5 (remove the viability of the go/stop/go/stop strategy).

E.G. 5kts and greater no penalty,

4kts +25% dispersion penalty

3kts +50% dispersion penalty

2kts +75% dispersion penalty

1 or 0 kts +100% dispersion penalty

 

(would love to see a similar block to CV's - i.e. under 10kts and planes can't take off, under 5kts planes can't land or take off)

 

That would be a decent way of handling this issue. While people will still do it, they'll pay for their use of said 'tactic.' As you point out with CVs, flight operations on real carriers require them to be moving at best speed for aiding planes in take off even with catapults. WW2 CVs had to drive into the wind to really get their planes of the deck without them crashing into the sea in front of them. It should be a requirement in this game too. Landing, not so much. That's what the arrest wires were for.

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easier to reverse the solution.

I.E. make stationary ships have a penalty on the dispersion for every knot under 5 (remove the viability of the go/stop/go/stop strategy).

E.G. 5kts and greater no penalty,

4kts +25% dispersion penalty

3kts +50% dispersion penalty

2kts +75% dispersion penalty

1 or 0 kts +100% dispersion penalty

 

(would love to see a similar block to CV's - i.e. under 10kts and planes can't take off, under 5kts planes can't land or take off)

 

yes for this please...when im in BB I always move...but at a reduced speed (3/4) to ease me turning from those torps or angling from a salvo...really hate it when my teammates stop n shoot...im okay if a soviet DD do that

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easier to reverse the solution.

I.E. make stationary ships have a penalty on the dispersion for every knot under 5 (remove the viability of the go/stop/go/stop strategy).

E.G. 5kts and greater no penalty,

4kts +25% dispersion penalty

3kts +50% dispersion penalty

2kts +75% dispersion penalty

1 or 0 kts +100% dispersion penalty

 

(would love to see a similar block to CV's - i.e. under 10kts and planes can't take off, under 5kts planes can't land or take off)

 

I really like this idea mate, I would apply it to under 10knts tho... Or a % of your top speed...

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I really like this idea mate, I would apply it to under 10knts tho... Or a % of your top speed...

 

noting how slow and how slow to accelerate some of the early BB's are, 5 knots is a compromise ;)

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The biggest problem, and the reason why battleships sit bow on to the enemy and don't move from tiers 9-10, is because it is way to easy to be hit in your citadel and get multiple citadels as well.

I have myself, once in a north Caroline shot at a Iowa and got 4 citadels with one broadside, his HP went from 100% down to 20% really quick and that's part of the reason why tiers 8-10 are unbalanced when you compare them to lower tiers 4-7 for example.

WG need to adjust the citadel size or adjust the chances of getting citadel hits in higher tiers 8-10

if you compare the higher tiers  to lower tiers you don't get this problem of multiple citadel hits of 3-4 with one broadside of a BB. Even cruisers last longer in tiers 4-7 than they do at tier 8-10, and tier 10  cruisers have a even worse survival rate.

 

I've played in tier 4 battles, where I'm in a  American cruiser fighting another tier 4 cruiser, Kuma I think it was and I hit him 8 times in his citadel and he still wasn't dead. 8 citadels and still alive shooting at me but yet you get 4-5 citadels at higher tiers and the ship is dead.

They need to make adjustments at higher tiers so that the ships last longer or at lest have less chance of being hit in the citadel and then players will go back to sailing their ships and not parking them up.

Even when u compare lower tier DDs, You can take more hits in low tier DDs  and cruisers and Battleships than you can at higher tiers.

tiers 4-6 I think are the best tiers to play as it is more balanced at them tiers, and the higher you go the more unbalanced the tiers become.

 

From tiers 8 and above the ships movability becomes less  and turning radius become bigger and because of this it is so much easier for BBs to hit others ships like DDs and cruisers as they turn like a fat cow.

also because the HP of DDs and cruisers are so low they die way to quick and easy.

 

What I think they need to do is yes reduce the spotting range of torpedos at higher tiers so its harder to spot them cuz as far as I know spotting range of torps is 10% of the range of the torpedos being fired, and that's why at  higher tiers DDs with torp ranges over 15km get spotted to easy and ships can dodge them, so the spotting range needs to be reduced and the movability of the ships like cruisers and DDs need to be increased and even the HP needs to be increased on those ships so they can last longer as well.

 

Other wise its going to be a waste of time playing higher tiers in any ship other than BBs

Also they need to get rid of the invisible firing of DDs as that really is BS and the Russian DDS need to have there guns adjusted as they are so OP and the fire chance is OP as well.

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Alpha Tester
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No, there's also the problem that the damage model creates the absurd situation that 'crossing the T', something every naval commander strove to avoid for as long as there's been artillery maximised to broadside on a ship, is in fact the IDEAL.

 

It's beyond ridiculous. It's why you watch cruisers at lower tiers face front on at a BB and just HE spam it to death at tiers 4-5, and why you watch Yamato sit at a dead stop somewhere happily bow on as it's nigh impossible for her to be hit critically in such a situation.

 

Just throw any knowledge you might have of the realities of this genre of combat out the window. It truly is a case of 'ignorance is bliss'; I'm sure it wouldn't bother me if I didn't have 35+ years of reading naval history to tell me just how far they've thrown any sense of realism out the porthole.

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