Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
You need to play a total of 10 battles to post in this section.
yansuki

USN fighter bomber, so when we are going to get them?

28 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

Beta Tester
2,083 posts
5,169 battles

 

main problem of USN fighter loadout is its inability to defend itself from treat such as destroyer, and its meager damage output compare to loadout with torpedo bomber. are we going to going to get those fighter bomber to higher tier USN carriers (making them more unique to their counterpart IJN carreirs) or even reimpement those AP bomb (exclusively to fighter loadout) to increase their damage output even by a little.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Super Tester
2,500 posts
1,535 battles

 meager damage output

 

Yeah, I'm also asking myself why I can't get 100k damage per game while obliterating the entire enemy airforce.

 

ccCF4T6.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
2,150 posts
486 battles

Does anyone complaining about a CVs damage output EVER consider any of the available stats for this server?

 

CVs fill 4 of the top 5 slots for av dam/battle. The only other ship in the top 5 is Yamato. Guess which are the top 2? The USN tier 10 and 9. Numbers 3 and 5? IJN tier 10 and 9 respectively.

 

ALL IJN CVs of tiers 5-10 have a higher av dam/battle than Des Moines.

 

Broaden it to the top 10? There are 6 CVs.

 

And so on.

 

CVs damage outputs are so consistently high/top for their tier that all these threads bellyaching about wanting to do MORE are just ridiculous. You might argue CVs are not balanced well between USN and IJN at various tiers, but the data would suggest they are far LESS balanced compared with nearly every OTHER ship that that is where WG ought to be looking, not at new ways of making it World of Air Pollution.

 

p.s. it appears Retia does, but then Retia has always been a realist from what I've seen (even if some posts are clearly done as jokes).

Edited by Steeltrap

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
2,083 posts
5,169 battles

Does anyone complaining about a CVs damage output EVER consider any of the available stats for this server?

 

CVs fill 4 of the top 5 slots for av dam/battle. The only other ship in the top 5 is Yamato. Guess which are the top 2? The USN tier 10 and 9. Numbers 3 and 5? IJN tier 10 and 9 respectively.

 

ALL IJN CVs of tiers 5-10 have a higher av dam/battle than Des Moines.

 

Broaden it to the top 10? There are 6 CVs.

 

And so on.

 

CVs damage outputs are so consistently high/top for their tier that all these threads bellyaching about wanting to do MORE are just ridiculous. You might argue CVs are not balanced well between USN and IJN at various tiers, but the data would suggest they are far LESS balanced compared with nearly every OTHER ship that that is where WG ought to be looking, not at new ways of making it World of Air Pollution.

 

p.s. it appears Retia does, but then Retia has always been a realist from what I've seen (even if some posts are clearly done as jokes).

 

i'm only talking about cv fighter loadout. its rarely get pass 40k damage at lower tier or even at mid tier.

can't defend against attacking destroyer or cruiser with dive bomer.

can't provide sufficient fire support on front lines.

once you shoot down all of the enemy planes or allied sink enemy cv then you have no other jobs to do than providing vision or just harassing battleship with dive bomber (most of them are probably dead at later game) and you're stuck only with fighter that can't do anything aside from providing vision of enemy ships.

and most frustrating of all. shooting down fighter give way too little exp and credits. not worth it if you got sink in the game.

 

those extra rockets and bomb(on fighter) can add a little addition to their meager armaments.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
2,150 posts
486 battles

 

i'm only talking about cv fighter loadout. its rarely get pass 40k damage at lower tier or even at mid tier.

can't defend against attacking destroyer or cruiser with dive bomer.

can't provide sufficient fire support on front lines.

once you shoot down all of the enemy planes or allied sink enemy cv then you have no other jobs to do than providing vision or just harassing battleship with dive bomber (most of them are probably dead at later game) and you're stuck only with fighter that can't do anything aside from providing vision of enemy ships.

and most frustrating of all. shooting down fighter give way too little exp and credits. not worth it if you got sink in the game.

 

those extra rockets and bomb(on fighter) can add a little addition to their meager armaments.

 

 

Oh Boo Hoo, barely past 40k damage. All from the safety of never being shot at.

 

People who play CVs are so obsessed with the idea everything should perform like the IJN CVs they seem entirely blind to the thought that the IJN CVs have been as OP/out of balance as [redacted] for the entirety of the game.

 

No, your CV doesn't need to do more, some other CVs simply need to do LESS. How's that for an alternate view?

 

And what's wrong with the idea of providing vision, or providing CAP for friendlies? You seem to think you need to be able to do EVERY TASK IN THE GAME, ON YOUR OWN. You want to kill enemy planes, enemy ships, defend against DDs that reach you...and, what else is there to do? It's quite hilarious; I don't believe there's any other class that expects to be able to do every single task in the game (and expect high exp, of course).

 

Having said that, I'm delighted to find I don't see many CVs these days for some reason. Either they've all got to higher tiers, or people have got bored with them. Either way I'm not complaining.

Edited by Steeltrap

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
2,083 posts
5,169 battles

40k damage for damage battleship hardly give exp and it rarely happens. most of the time only 15k from bomb and few thousand from fire damage. (because divebomber can't hit anything smaller than battleship).

saw multiples games with a cv with fighter setup where the cv player mange to shoot down 30+ planes, and when the games ended they barely get 800+ exp while battleship and cruiser on top 5 has 1-2+k exp. after all the hard work they provided for their team they barely got. and that is for winning the game, what about if they lost?

does adding those rockets or bombs on fighter make them imba no but they will stretch the hand of cv with fighter setup a little bit, adding little fire power to defend them self if they get caught by DD or provide more support for the team on the frontlines.  cv with fighter setup are food for dd and cruiser. they don't have something to throw out to defend themselves.

 

and btw. the reason why there's no much carrier lately is because of that S%^&* changes on dog-fighting skill broke the cv gameplay.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Super Tester
2,500 posts
1,535 battles

40k damage for damage battleship hardly give exp and it rarely happens. most of the time only 15k from bomb and few thousand from fire damage.

 

Meanwhile the enemy CV goes out with 0-8.000 damage.

From a potential damage of 40.000-100.000 to 0-8.000... ... if the US CV done it's job that is...

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
2,083 posts
5,169 battles

 

Meanwhile the enemy CV goes out with 0-8.000 damage.

From a potential damage of 40.000-100.000 to 0-8.000... ... if the US CV done it's job that is...

 

 

 

yet they hardly receive exp for denying those potential damage to friendly fleet at all fall easily to enemy dd if spotted, (specially russian and usn ones) because they can't get away don't have the right weapon to take them out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Super Tester
2,500 posts
1,535 battles

 

yet they hardly receive exp for denying those potential damage to friendly fleet at all fall easily to enemy dd if spotted, (specially russian and usn ones) because they can't get away don't have the right weapon to take them out.

 

My average exp on both Langley and Bogue is 1090.

My overall average exp is 1190... oh woe is me for the 100 avg. exp I'm missing out on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
1,043 posts
4,300 battles

Does anyone complaining about a CVs damage output EVER consider any of the available stats for this server?

 

CVs fill 4 of the top 5 slots for av dam/battle. The only other ship in the top 5 is Yamato. Guess which are the top 2? The USN tier 10 and 9. Numbers 3 and 5? IJN tier 10 and 9 respectively.

 

ALL IJN CVs of tiers 5-10 have a higher av dam/battle than Des Moines.

 

Broaden it to the top 10? There are 6 CVs.

 

And so on.

 

CVs damage outputs are so consistently high/top for their tier that all these threads bellyaching about wanting to do MORE are just ridiculous. You might argue CVs are not balanced well between USN and IJN at various tiers, but the data would suggest they are far LESS balanced compared with nearly every OTHER ship that that is where WG ought to be looking, not at new ways of making it World of Air Pollution.

 

p.s. it appears Retia does, but then Retia has always been a realist from what I've seen (even if some posts are clearly done as jokes).

 

CVs are meant to deal high damage. If you didn't already know, CV rewards have been highly nerfed even doing 120k damage gives you less than half the rewards than doing 40k damage in a same tiered destroyer. That, with the crappy dogfight revamp, the dumb fighter auto-retaliation, gave the significant drop in CV usage. CVs haven't been nerfed, they got ruined and got boring and worthless to play. With all the stress you have to deal with fighting against a IJN CV in a USN bomber loadout(don't include low tiers), after doing so much for the game, you end up given so crappy reward.

 

To hell with the stats, most of those stats for low-mid tier are padded back in the heyday of CV, back when doing 100k in a zuiho was possible. All we ask is give a fighter loadout a fighting chance against ships, improve the versatility of USN CV as to their counterparts possibly reducing those who use bomber loadouts at essex and midway and lessen the damage output and the QQing of ships, and improve the overall CV gameplay for the game which this game horribly needs right now. When we  see that both nation's CV are balanced against each other, we can lower lower both their potential at the same rate and we can have better outcome without much repercussions I believe.

 

 

My average exp on both Langley and Bogue is 1090.

My overall average exp is 1190... oh woe is me for the 100 avg. exp I'm missing out on.

 

  Plane killing has been given a buff on EXP rewards. You can still feel good enough since it is at low tier, and that contentment tapers off the higher you go up tier.

But honestly, don't you feel useless when you use a CV and does 18k average damage? While your tier 4 cruiser does more than twice that amount?

Edited by Deicide

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
2,150 posts
486 battles

Well I'm unapologetic about the fact that I've always thought this game would have been better served being set in WWI and not WWII, not least because CVs are so entirely significant to game play and inevitably notoriously difficult to balance effectively. There are other reasons, too, but they are more about the lack of having to make up a load of ships and other such factors.

 

That and the fact that I got sick to death of playing World of Air Pollution, constantly having to stop everything and worry about surviving the next cloud of planes for a minute or two, if not longer depending on tier and numbers involved. And accepting that sometimes I was simply screwed and there was not a damn thing I could do about it; yeah, that was fun game design, thanks WG.

 

So I'm perfectly happy not seeing masses of CVs around. If they got boring to play it's interesting that many seem to find all the other classes fun to play without the CVs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Super Tester
2,500 posts
1,535 battles

You can still feel good enough since it is at low tier, and that contentment tapers off the higher you go up tier.

But honestly, don't you feel useless when you use a CV and does 18k average damage? While your tier 4 cruiser does more than twice that amount?

 

I just obliterated 50 aircrafts without even one of them dropping a single bomb.

Then I proceeded to keep DDs and torpedoes visible for my team while continuing to drop 5k-9k bomb hits on enemy BBs,

every time setting them also on fire which means they either take additional damage or have to use their instant repair,

which means they're now weak against torpedoes and fires for a minute...

 

Why should i feel useless?

 

Plane killing has been given a buff on EXP rewards.

 

It may come to your surprise that I've graduated the Langles a long time ago...

Edited by Retia

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SB]
Member
116 posts
12,420 battles

Of course you can intercept all aircraft. You're playing an Air Superiority Bogue. Only another Air Superiority Bogue can challenge the skies against it.

 

Doing the same thing at higher tiers is near impossible, because IJN CVs get more and more squadrons while you're struck with the same two fighter squadrons until the Essex.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
423 posts
3,175 battles

Well, I am not feeling bad about the mechanism right now, except...

 

GIVE ME MORE REWARD IN KEEPING THE SKIES CLEAR...

And...

GIVE ME MORE TEAMMATES WITH BRAIN...

Last match got Clear Sky but sink, thanks to the friendly teammate CV Hosho didn't understand that I open their way for their TB to strike hard at targets, not to waste their TB to dive into enemy squad that STICKS TOGETHER...

Edited by jchen8792

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
1,196 posts
2,883 battles

CV is not overpowered, your brain is underpowered:trollface: admiral jingles (2015) 

And because of people like Who complain on every single CV post we won't be using fighters equipped with bombs anytime soon

Edited by silenthunter19944

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Super Tester
2,500 posts
1,535 battles

Doing the same thing at higher tiers is near impossible, because IJN CVs get more and more squadrons while you're struck with the same two fighter squadrons until the Essex.

 

The only loadout for JP CVs like Hiryuu to effectively counter a US CV with the fighter loadout... *drumroll* is the fighter loadout.

And with their slightly better speed and ammunition loadout the US fighters on Ranger are still better.

 

Meanwhile Ryuujou's fighters are pretty much just as good as US fighters, but choosing the aerial superiority loadout completely cuts down her

damage potential.

 

At the same time the Independence keeps the Bogue's bombing potential simply because her DB squadron has 6 planes instead of Ryuujou's 4 planes per squadron.

Why is that an issue? Because any encounter with anything that has any kind of remotely usable AA will shoot down 1-2 planes before they drop their bombs,

and any player with situational awareness will manage to throw the CV player's aim off and potentially raise the number of shot down planes further by actually maneuvering correctly.

 

So if a US CV meets a JP CV that actually uses the fighter loadout then both players have to unsurprisingly use their heads.

Just like whenever one meets another US CV with the fighter loadout... incredible...

 

W: "But Hiryuu gets 2 dive bomber squadrons!"

R: Yeah, she does, so now the JP dive bombers can actually bomb things... wow... meanwhile Ranger gets an additional DB squad to divert the JP fighters' attention or

deal even more damage than before...

 

W: "But muh tier VIII US CV still only has 2 fighter squadrons! It's so unfair!"

R: Indeed, it's unfair that the Lexington can just use her stock loadout, because it not only grants her the typical 2 fighters that are of equivalent

strength to the 3 JP squadrons, but also a dive and torpedo bomber squadron.

Or if one is just completely incompetent at manual torpedoing targets with the 6 bomber spread one can just continue on with the 2 DB loadout... quite unfair.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
1,043 posts
4,300 battles

 

The only loadout for JP CVs like Hiryuu to effectively counter a US CV with the fighter loadout... *drumroll* is the fighter loadout.

And with their slightly better speed and ammunition loadout the US fighters on Ranger are still better.

 

 

No need to counter and go toe to toe while using hiryuu. your goal is to deal as much damage as possible before your planes run out. your fighters are there to give you more leeway and if the enemy goes desperately killing your bombers and disregarding your fighters, you can go and kill his few bombers and literally make his damage output 0. the keyword is tactical versatility, this is where your micro, luring, and kiting skills comes in.

 

Meanwhile Ryuujou's fighters are pretty much just as good as US fighters, but choosing the aerial superiority loadout completely cuts down her

damage potential.

 

At the same time the Independence keeps the Bogue's bombing potential simply because her DB squadron has 6 planes instead of Ryuujou's 4 planes per squadron.

Why is that an issue? Because any encounter with anything that has any kind of remotely usable AA will shoot down 1-2 planes before they drop their bombs,

and any player with situational awareness will manage to throw the CV player's aim off and potentially raise the number of shot down planes further by actually maneuvering correctly.

 

this is wrong. ryuujo's fighters are way behind indy's. choosing 311 cuts down her damage output, but not completely and definitely still way ahead of indy's 201. in the end, both of them still has small hangar space and at that tier most of the time it's the ship's AA which kills the bombers. indy's situation is far different at low tiers like bogue(fighting at tier 8s), 201 simply doesn't pay enough.

 

R: meanwhile Ranger gets an additional DB squad to divert the JP fighters' attention or

deal even more damage than before...

 

any hiryuu 222 using his fighters to kill the dive bombers of a ranger 202 is pure dumb. hiryuu's fighter should be a dedicated escort and lures/meatshield should it find itself against a ranger 202. its not like those 2 dive bombers are gonna do anything drastic to change the game outcome compared to your 2 torps and 2 dives. anyone who does otherwise deserves to lose.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Deicide

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
2,150 posts
486 battles

CV is not overpowered, your brain is underpowered:trollface: admiral jingles (2015) 

And because of people like Who complain on every single CV post we won't be using fighters equipped with bombs anytime soon

 

Jingles is for entertainment. He frequently knows duck all about balance and mechanics.

 

Besides which, the numbers don't lie.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Super Tester
2,500 posts
1,535 battles

No need to counter and go toe to toe while using hiryuu. your goal is to deal as much damage as possible before your planes run out. your fighters are there to give you more leeway and if the enemy goes desperately killing your bombers and disregarding your fighters, you can go and kill his few bombers and literally make his damage output 0. the keyword is tactical versatility, this is where your micro, luring, and kiting skills comes in.

 

Yeah, but considering that most people whining about CV imbalance seem to have issues microing the 3-4 units at tier IV... ;P

 

Mind you my statement still stands, it's quite easy to get the same results in higher tiers as one gets in lower tiers when using the US fighter loadout.

Microing, luring and kiting is nice and all, and who doesn't enjoy squeezing their bombers through that small vision hole created by luring the enemy fighters out of position,

but that's also why the Ranger has an additional bomber squadron, there is no squeezing through when I'm using them to provide vision, and to completely cover the entire map one only needs 3 squadrons...

 

this is wrong. ryuujo's fighters are way behind indy's.

 

Uhu.

 

JMcOIY6.png

 

Both have 12 fighters in their AS loadouts.

 

choosing 311 cuts down her damage output, but not completely and definitely still way ahead of indy's 201.

 

4 japanese dive bombers will hardly achieve anything, any CA at that tier will murder them,

and even the non-AA-hull DDs will easily pick 1-2 of them out of the skies, not to mention what BB AA does with them.

 

The 4 TBs can still do something, but let's be honest, a single torpedo squadron works only against players with the

situational awareness of your average potato.

 

indy's situation is far different at low tiers like bogue(fighting at tier 8s), 201 simply doesn't pay enough.

 

Pay enough has in giving enough rewards?

Again, I don't give two cakes about my rewards as long as I helped the team win, and shutting down the enemy carrier while delivering a decent amount of damage works for me.

 

any hiryuu 222 using his fighters to kill the dive bombers of a ranger 202 is pure dumb. hiryuu's fighter should be a dedicated escort and lures/meatshield should it find itself against a ranger 202.

 

Thus you're sending your fighters into a 2-2 squadron situation where I'll shoot them down quicker than your bomber can arrive at the target...

 

its not like those 2 dive bombers are gonna do anything drastic to change the game outcome compared to your 2 torps and 2 dives.

 

I hope people will forever continue to think so, that would help me a lot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
1,043 posts
4,300 battles

JMcOIY6.png

 

Both have 12 fighters in their AS loadouts.

 

Hmm, that's weird. As far as I remember, Ryujo can own the sky as long as there is no 2 indy fighter setup as the latter would always win. Of course happens differently at high tiers b/c of the level 5 captain skill. Or did they recently changed the stats of these fighters? Anyways, let's say I'm wrong but still -

 

4 japanese dive bombers will hardly achieve anything, any CA at that tier will murder them,

and even the non-AA-hull DDs will easily pick 1-2 of them out of the skies, not to mention what BB AA does with them.

 

The 4 TBs can still do something, but let's be honest, a single torpedo squadron works only against players with the

situational awareness of your average potato.

 

it's nice of you downplaying dive bombers, it's not like 2 extra dive bomber plane change much. They still do what they're tasked for: putting up fires. Put that with the recent manual drop buff and you have enough. Of course, you don't go attacking clevelands or high tiered cruisers, and of course the same goes to your dive bombers.

 

And those 4 TBs will do more damage in a single run than a DB in 2 runs(given that the DB does 2 fire stack and the enemy ship doesnt repair it). And finding a suitable target (e.g. busy firing at an allied ship) and landing 2-3 torpedoes despite whatever the enemy ship do is the measure of a CV captain skill and you'll be doing that up to tier 10s.

 

Thus you're sending your fighters into a 2-2 squadron situation where I'll shoot them down quicker than your bomber can arrive at the target...

 

I mainly used 122 back in ryujo and most ryujo captains use 311, but I still managed to avg 60k damage. The same with hiryuu, I can still drop boatloads of damage even against a ranger in fighter setup. How? Skills and tactics. Tactics such as luring enemy figthers at the other side of the map while bombing on the other side, timing your bombing runs the same time the enemy does; and skills such as manually dropping torps with very short amount of time and setting up, knowing the detection range of your planes to hide them till the very last moment.

For escort style, hide them all till the last moment and successfully drop your bombs with the few seconds your fighters gonna give you. your bombers fly fast after dropping so they can escape the enemy figthers. mix in a variety of tactics then you are efficiently using the versatility advantage of the IJN CVs.

 

I hope people will forever continue to think so, that would help me a lot.

 

That's what most of the more skilled CV captain would do, as they will concentrate on their own bombing runs and outdamage you. If an enemy CV deals massive damage and you have a fighter setup, then I'm afraid you failed your primary mission.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
2,083 posts
5,169 battles

i can rekt RJ fighter with 2 USN without problem, i will tank all 3 of them with one while i use barrage on the other one. presto you got 12 dead IJN fighter with only few losses on the 1st fighter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
1,196 posts
2,883 battles

 

Jingles is for entertainment. He frequently knows duck all about balance and mechanics.

 

Besides which, the numbers don't lie.

Well as deicide said CVs are meant to shut down enemy fleet just like they did in real life. If you want to nerf CV then there would be no point using them as they requires a huge amount of multitasking especially the higher tier IJN CVs. If CV get nerfed then that's like nerfing CV damage output to that of a battleship

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
19 posts
1,783 battles

Are the people in this discussion missing the part about what the ships are doing damage to? Cruisers shouldn't be able to do more damage per game than a battleships simply because of who they are trying to kill. Cruisers have half the health of a battleship after all. On the topic of carriers being OP (as this is what the thread is evolving into), carriers have the tendency of snowballing, simply because the lack of concentrated AA firepower in the later stages of the game, and since they have the fastest response time (for cleaning up ships), it is no surprise that carriers get the highest dmg/game. That said, tier 9/10 carrier numbers do look out of control.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Super Tester
2,500 posts
1,535 battles

That's what most of the more skilled CV captain would do, as they will concentrate on their own bombing runs and outdamage you. If an enemy CV deals massive damage and you have a fighter setup, then I'm afraid you failed your primary mission.

 

I think we can conclude this quite simply.

A US CV with the AS loadout can completely or mostly deny bombing to a Strike CV.

However in order to do so he'll have to use his brain and not get outplayed by the Strike CV.

 

Hence one has several options.

Either one goes with the US Strike loadout and tries to outdamage the other CV.

(Which is quite possible if the player is good at manual dropping)

Or one goes with the AS loadout and plays the microing game against the other CV.

 

The first option requires a good focus on target optimisation and microing if the enemy has fighters.

The later requires mostly microing and is potentially more about mindgames.

 

i can rekt RJ fighter with 2 USN without problem, i will tank all 3 of them with one while i use barrage on the other one. presto you got 12 dead IJN fighter with only few losses on the 1st fighter.

 

And how often have you gotten yourself caught in the strafing run?

If your reply isn't "Always, it's so very difficult to anticipate and dodge." then you might realise why Ryuujou's fighters can deal with US fighters in an even situation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

×